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Conflicted.....input appreciated (Read 468 times)
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Reply #15 - 01/08/15 at 21:41:10
 
I want my epitater to read...  
"See,... I told ya' I was sick"...  Huh...


...and Web,... you should be scared... do you imagine a bunch of French cartoonist's to be liberal,.. or conservative?...
Grin Grin Grin...



If I might....  refocus this thread, without a total hijack...
Why is it,.. that the ACLU is a liberal organization?...
As I see it,.. they defend the Constitution, with an unbiased fervor...
As I see it,.. the conflict lies in the Right-wing attachment to the steadfast interpretation of the Constitution and Christian dogma...
... a conflict, if there ever was one...

They seem to me, to defend freedoms of thought and expression, equally...Right and Left...
... but they are interpreted as a leftist organization...
How is the defense of individual rights,... a leftist cause?...

Puzzling to me... Huh...
These French cartoonist's would have been supported by the ACLU...
Is it not a conflict to the Right-wing theology?...?...

It is my belief... that the differential between Right and Left... is not about "freedoms"... or "rights"... (we all believe in them)... but in empathy...
The understanding that, we must defend the beliefs of those that we don't agree with... (while still having the right to disagree)...
Equally,... we must resist making our disagreement, law...

Is there a difference between a day before abortion and and the day after pill?...
Is there a difference between a blunderbuss and a an AK-47?...
Is there a gray.. or is everything black and white?...

Should we meet in the middle?...
Shouldn't we be able to agree to accept each other"s difference of thought...
I really believe that we basically want the same thing...
What is in the way?... Huh...
Is it purely interpretation?...

...and this is why, us, atheist's,.. are so argumentative...
It's not that anyone's beliefs offend us... it's just that they conflict with with the ideologies of so many..,including they're own...
You can't believe in individual freedoms,.. while restricting the personal freedoms of others...
We all need our freedoms of thought... and expression...
Peace,...
Serow
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Reply #16 - 01/09/15 at 06:39:18
 
do you imagine a bunch of French cartoonist's to be liberal,.. or conservative?...

I don’t speak French, so I can’t read the paper. Given that the conservative arm of the French government is probably more tax and spend than the conservative arm of the US government, I’d say in general, France is more liberal than the US. Given that most media outlets are liberal, all that points to these cartoonist having strong liberal tendencies.

However, I think France, Germany, Italy and a few others fit the phrase: a conservative is a liberal who’s been mugged. Europe is on the front lines of Islamic fascism and academic niceties fall apart when the reality that immigration is destroying your nation strikes home. (even Democrats support their military after 9/11..at least for a few minutes)

I’ve never walked the back streets of Paris; only been through the airport a few times, but I’m told there are places in Paris you just simply don’t go unless you are a Muslim. This is no different than most major US cities; if you are white, there are places it’s just not safe to venture into.

I spent some time in Budapest Hungry. Stayed in a hotel in the central area of downtown next to their parliament building (their equivalent of our US Capital) and I walked all over the city. All over Buda and all over Pest as they say. Beautiful place. Point is, I never felt unsafe a single time. I went through working class neighborhoods and stopped in local bars. I did the same in Bergamo Italy, Taipei Taiwan and Tokyo. In none of those places did I feel unsafe. But I’ve been told that’s a no-no in Paris now days. I think even the liberals in France are beginning to push back.

Why is it,.. that the ACLU is a liberal organization?...
As I see it,.. they defend the Constitution, with an unbiased fervor...


Okay, I’ve got my early morning laugh out of the way, thanks…..

If you think the ACLU defends the Constitution with an unbiased fervor…. You’ve been watching too many re-runs of Michael Douglass in The American President….
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Reply #17 - 01/09/15 at 07:13:59
 
These French cartoonist's would have been supported by the ACLU...
Is it not a conflict to the Right-wing theology?...?...


No, the reality is it is conservatives who defend free speech. The concept of hate speech is a liberal agenda. Liberals will fight tooth and nail to remove Condoleezza Rice, Ann Coulter or in my town Bristol Palin gets special attention from the left. Their thoughts are not worthy so the left just can't let others hear them so they shut down their speeches.  However, those same leftist will call themselves courageous for inviting  Ahmadinejad from Iran right in the middle of the time period when he was  killing protestors in his country. It's the left whose most active in silencing opposition. Remember Flush Rush?!

Trying to use government regulations to quiet someone they can't stand to hear talk! How many conservatives have had to resign for saying something when lefties say things 10 times worse and remain on the job?


It is my belief... that the differential between Right and Left... is not about "freedoms"... or "rights"... (we all believe in them)... but in empathy...

The difference between Left and Right is:  idealism vs reality.

It’s a truism is you’re not a liberal when you’re 20; you don’t have a heart. If you’re not a conservative at 40; you don’t have a brain.

The Right needs the idealism of the Left and the Left needs the pragmatism of the Right.

Left to its own accords, the Left would destroy us by spreading every facet of government over every facet of life…. On its own, the Right would destroy us by not venturing outwards into the unknowns which is a trait that kills all organizations. We need each other. Just like the good Kirk and the bad Kirk on that old Star Trek episode!

The understanding that, we must defend the beliefs of those that we don't agree with... (while still having the right to disagree)...
Equally,... we must resist making our disagreement, law...

Is there a difference between a day before abortion and and the day after pill?...
No.


Is there a difference between a blunderbuss and a an AK-47?...
Yes. But an AK-47 is a blast to shoot! I’m a firm believer that “If guns kill people then pencils make spelling mistakes”


Is there a gray.. or is everything black and white?...

Of course there’s a gray. In all areas? No, of course not. You don’t think so either.


Should we meet in the middle?...

How can we always meet in the middle? You brought up abortion.

I just held my 3 month old granddaughter this morning. She’s old enough now to smile and reach out at you. What do you want me to say; that 6 months ago if her mother had decided to kill her in her womb because she just lost a job or had some other set back and society encouraged her to abort her unborn and try again later; I am supposed to ‘give ground’ to you accept that? You want me to think that  the hacked up pieces of flesh sitting in a plastic bag behind the Planned Parenthood office waiting to be hauled off to the incinerator is not my little Sadie? Bull$hit.

My wife and I were both conceived and born in very bad situations back in the early 60’s. Today, our mothers would likely have aborted us. Now I have two children and a beautiful granddaughter. In your world, none of these lives would have ever happened.

Convince me that how I’m supposed to clear the pathway and make it easier for women to kill their babies…

We had a 'six months' from conception-three months to go'  party for her. We put her ultrasound picture on the wall with the rest of the family.  They gave her a name, we called her by name before she was even born. And you want me to agree that simply moving a few inches down a birth canal after being alive for 9 months  is what made her a person worthy of legal protection? How am I suppose to meet you in the middle when your middle would have been agreeing to chop those little girls into pieces and throw them out like trash?
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Reply #18 - 01/09/15 at 08:19:51
 
Take your soapbox to Sandy Hook...

To value a couple of cells more than 6 year old child that is loved is nonsensical...

...but,.. I wasn't planning on another choice/life argument...
Congrats on your new family addition... Smiley...
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Reply #19 - 01/09/15 at 09:05:38
 
Hey, you're the one that brought it up.

Sorry but a six month old  unborn child is a bit more than a few cells.

And as I have always found, any time you start a discussion with a pro-choice person and you begin to bring up logical fallacies in their argument they run away. Literally, I have had people turn and walk away when confronted with simple realities. They always start off like they want to have a discussion but it never turns out that way.

And hey, I don't really blame them or you. Your position forces you to agree with acts that you know are just not right. If I was forced to somehow justify chopping up small babies I guess I'd run away too so I don't blame you.

Thank you for the congratulations. I have to admit having a grandchild seems way more fascinating than having my own children. Probably because when you have your own children you're caught up in the moment as far as having to raise them, provide for them and everything else. Maybe having a grandchild is like living next to a city park: you can enjoy everything but you don't have to cut the grass!
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Reply #20 - 01/09/15 at 10:56:56
 
Just the facts...

Quote:
•Half of pregnancies among American women are unintended, and four in 10 of these are terminated by abortion.[1]
•Twenty-one percent of all pregnancies (excluding miscarriages) end in abortion.[2]
• In 2011, 1.06 million abortions were performed, down 13% from 1.21 million in 2008. From 1973 through 2011, nearly 53 million legal abortions occurred.[2]

WHO HAS ABORTIONS?

• Eighteen percent of U.S. women obtaining abortions are teenagers; those aged 15–17 obtain 6% of all abortions, 18–19-year-olds obtain 11%, and teens younger than 15 obtain 0.4%.[3]
• Non-Hispanic white women account for 36% of abortions, non-Hispanic black women for 30%, Hispanic women for 25% and women of other races for 9%.[3]
• Thirty-seven percent of women obtaining abortions identify as Protestant and 28% identify as Catholic.[3]
• About 61% of abortions are obtained by women who have one or more children. [3]
• Forty-two percent of women obtaining abortions have incomes below 100% of the federal poverty level ($10,830 for a single woman with no children).[3]
• Twenty-seven percent of women obtaining abortions have incomes between 100–199% of the federal poverty level. * [3]
• Fifty-one percent of women who have abortions had used a contraceptive method in the month they got pregnant, most commonly condoms (27%) or a hormonal method (17%).
• Each year, 1.7% of women aged 15–44 have an abortion
• At least half of American women will experience an unintended pregnancy by age 45, and at 2008 abortion rates, one in 10 women will have an abortion by age 20, one in four by age 30 and three in 10 by age 45


The point here is I will not judge women, while they deal with an issue and responsibility that I as a man cannot realize...
I neither approve nor disapprove... because I don't have the right...
Keep in mind,... the legal status of abortion doesn't create or prevent it...
It just makes it safer... or more dangerous...
Abortions didn't start happening with Roe v Wade,... they've been going on since ancient times... they just became safer... Millions of women's lives have been saved...
The Supreme Court, a traditionally conservative body, has determined and upheld repeatedly that this procedure is Constitutionally protected...
"Chopping up babies" is a Right-Wing red herring...

Beyond this, you can soapbox your high morality till your blue in the face... you still don't have a womb...
So it will never be your decision... or mine...
Women don't deal in the abstract on this issue... they deal in harsh reality...
I'll leave the decision to them...

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Reply #21 - 01/09/15 at 12:22:10
 
Your statistics are my point exactly. I was one of those unintendec pregnancies as was my wife. We are as much alive today as we were then.

My red herring of dead babies is unfortunately true. Your red herring of millions of women alive today is fortunately not true. Very few deaths occurred from back alley, coat hanger abortions. That's lie has been told so many times way too many fully people believe it. And for what it's worth the fear of a back alley abortion is probably why I and my wife are alive today. Frankly we need a little more fear in this regards today. The abortion rate for blacks in inner cities is unbelievably high.

As far as women being the only one allowed to weigh in on this decision, that's nonsense is well. I mean if you want to go down the road were only those directly affected by a particular situation are the only ones allowed to make public policy, oh boy what a can of worms that is....

But you're right, so much for the soapbox. This thread has been hijacked.
Back to the original topic, it seems the terrorist murderers have been killed themselves in a shootout. Unfortunately, it also seems a few of the hostages died as well.  I heard the French president speech and CNN immediately jumped on the single line in his speech that I heard how we need to not blame "ordinary Muslims". I'm not sure about that. Every time there's one of these Islamic fundamentalist/terrorist attacks, we keep hearing how this is not part of the mainstream Muslim ideology. All evidence to the contrary, I'm starting to think that in fact it is part of the Muslim mainstream ideology. Instead of being hypersensitive to some made-up condition of Islamicphobia, maybe we ought to really start getting a real Islamicphobia.
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Reply #22 - 01/09/15 at 12:33:05
 
raydawg wrote on 01/08/15 at 19:22:24:
But the eptitater thing, uh, you got me  Grin


Quote:
Secondly,... epitaphs and epithets are two different things...

epitaphs are written... like on a tombstone
epithets are spoken, usually at the cost of a busted lip
eptitaters are thrown or eaten, depending circumstances.   Grin
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Reply #23 - 01/09/15 at 13:00:06
 
Quote:
 ... Why is it,.. that the ACLU is a liberal organization?...  ... As I see it,.. they defend the Constitution, with an unbiased fervor...  ... They seem to me, to defend freedoms of thought and expression, equally...Right and Left... ...How is the defense of individual rights,... a leftist cause?...


I can't recall, the ACLU ever defending the 2nd Amendment of the Constitution.

Quote:
... The understanding that, we must defend the beliefs of those that we don't agree with... (while still having the right to disagree)...  

Absolutely. When I lay down a package of Bacon, on the belt at a supermarket, the person behind me, (wearing full Berke), has a, 'right', to not lay her food down on the same belt, as to her religious believes. She has every, 'right' to, hold it off the belt, to go to another lane, or another supermarket.  

However, She does NOT, have ANY, 'right' to DEMAND, that store STOP selling Bacon.

Quote:
... Equally,... we must resist making our disagreement, law...


Again a  big, A-Yep !
But the only way, that will happen, is for US, to keep holding the feet of the people WE, hire and PAY, to the coals. And do not LET them, take that freedom of opinion away.

In the, (warmer months), I have a friend who, the two of us could not be at more extreme ends of the political spectrum. Will sit in the chairs under the shade, having a cool beverage, and discuss views. Often ending with his wife calling me, and asking is Don is their.  Of course I tell her, "He just left, will be home shortly"  Grin

Point is, it is wonderful to disagree on a subject.
And when no resolution is readily achieved.
We simply, agree to disagree on that subject.

It will be a sad day, when, 'someone', who I disagree with, goes to the, 'authorities', and I just, 'disappear'!
And more and more, that is getting closer and closer.




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Ben Franklin once said: "If you give up a freedom, for the sake of security, you will have neither".
Which is More TRUE, today, than yesterday.('06, S-40, Stock) well, mostly .
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Reply #24 - 01/09/15 at 13:32:55
 
Good point about the ACLU and the second amendment.

Also I guess I can say just like Sew,  I'm pro-choice.
I think if someone chooses to have an AK-47, the choice is up to them not me.....
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Reply #25 - 01/09/15 at 18:19:15
 
Back to the original topic, presented with no comment.

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Reply #26 - 01/10/15 at 05:51:33
 
Just read an interesting article citing the daft 100,000 French Jews have left France in the past year. What I didn't read was how many Muslim immigrants came into France during that same period....

Are we in the early stages of a time period when Muslim will be synonymous with Nazi?
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Reply #27 - 01/10/15 at 08:42:37
 
Thanks Bot, a good post........

However, in my opine intellectually one-sided without extending any tolerance ( willingness to accept feelings, habits, or beliefs that are different from your own ) to others, but that you freely carve out charges of the opposition based in your beliefs.

Re: abortion, it has become a political football and presently a tool politicians use to garner support and power, I wonder if the ACLU would defend Margaret Sanger's rights to freedom of speech......

Here are just a few of the beliefs from the founder of Planned Parenthood:


"The most merciful thing that a large family does to one of its infant members is to kill it."


On blacks, immigrants and indigents:

"...human weeds,' 'reckless breeders,' 'spawning... human beings who never should have been born."  Margaret Sanger, Pivot of Civilization, referring to immigrants and poor people
On sterilization & racial purification:
Sanger believed that, for the purpose of racial "purification," couples should be rewarded who chose sterilization. Birth Control in America, The Career of Margaret Sanger, by David Kennedy, p. 117, quoting a 1923 Sanger speech.

On the right of married couples to bear children:

Couples should be required to submit applications to have a child, she wrote in her "Plan for Peace." Birth Control Review, April 1932

On the purpose of birth control:

The purpose in promoting birth control was "to create a race of thoroughbreds," she wrote in the Birth Control Review, Nov. 1921 (p. 2)

On the rights of the handicapped and mentally ill, and racial minorities:

"More children from the fit, less from the unfit -- that is the chief aim of birth control." Birth Control Review, May 1919, p. 12

On religious convictions regarding sex outside of marriage:

"This book aims to answer the needs expressed in thousands on thousands of letters to me in the solution of marriage problems... Knowledge of sex truths frankly and plainly presented cannot possibly injure healthy, normal, young minds. Concealment, suppression, futile attempts to veil the unveilable - these work injury, as they seldom succeed and only render those who indulge in them ridiculous. For myself, I have full confidence in the cleanliness, the open-mindedness, the promise of the younger generation." Margaret Sanger, Happiness in Marriage (Bretano's, New York, 1927)

On the extermination of blacks:

"We do not want word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population," she said, "if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members." Woman's Body, Woman's Right: A Social History of Birth Control in America, by Linda Gordon

On respecting the rights of the mentally ill:

In her "Plan for Peace," Sanger outlined her strategy for eradication of those she deemed "feebleminded." Among the steps included in her evil scheme were immigration restrictions; compulsory sterilization; segregation to a lifetime of farm work; etc. Birth Control Review, April 1932, p. 107

On adultery:

A woman's physical satisfaction was more important than any marriage vow, Sanger believed. Birth Control in America, p. 11

On marital sex:

"The marriage bed is the most degenerating influence in the social order," Sanger said. (p. 23) [Quite the opposite of God's view on the matter: "Marriage is honorable in all, and the bed undefiled; but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge." (Hebrews 13:4)

On abortion:

"Criminal' abortions arise from a perverted sex relationship under the stress of economic necessity, and their greatest frequency is among married women." The Woman Rebel - No Gods, No Masters, May 1914, Vol. 1, No. 3.

On the YMCA and YWCA:

"...brothels of the Spirit and morgues of Freedom!"), The Woman Rebel - No Gods, No Masters, May 1914, Vol. 1, No. 3.

On the Catholic Church's view of contraception:

"...enforce SUBJUGATION by TURNING WOMAN INTO A MERE INCUBATOR." The Woman Rebel - No Gods, No Masters, May 1914, Vol. 1, No. 3.

On motherhood:

"I cannot refrain from saying that women must come to recognize there is some function of womanhood other than being a child-bearing machine." What Every Girl Should Know, by Margaret Sanger (Max Maisel, Publisher, 1915) [Jesus said: "Daughters of Jerusalem, weep... for your children. For, behold, the days are coming, in which they shall say, Blessed (happy) are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the breasts which never gave suck." (Luke 23:24)]

Will the ACLU defend this, somehow I doubt it.

Will they defend this man rights to "freedom of expression"

He lost his job, one he did so well that Obama invited him to serve in his cabinet.
Not one charge of  him using his faith to deny any other firefighter promotion exists, yet, those who stand against a persons freedom to believe and express, got him fired on the grounds that they BELIEVE it would bias him at performing his duties....

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2015/01/06/atlantas-fire-ch...

I remember Rush said we will have "thought police" and it appears the talking head is a prophet too!

Actually, the biggest statist killers in history have been anti-religious...Joesph Stalin, (seven million murdered) Mao Zedung  (11 million murdered) Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge (2.5 million murdered)...These are just a few of historys non-religious mass murders, that list is actually quite large. (Including left wing idol, and mass murder, Ernesto (Che) Guevara.

So, why do you think "all war is religion, all religion is war"?

And one more thought about abortion.....

It would all prove a moot point IF people (men and women) practiced "birth control" BEFORE engaging. I mean after all, we ain't animals and do have "destiny" in our grasp, but our selfishness (getting our own fill) trumps, and everything else pays for it, and yes, even over population and the effecting pollution and strain it puts upon our planet.  

And closing, I believe a teacher or anyone else employed in the public sector has a right to have in their possession a bible to read at their luxury, however, I believe God should NOT be referenced in the pledge or on our coin, as that is indeed sanctioning, as is tax exemptions for churches, etc.
I feel a flat consumption tax would repair many of our ills where the system inadvertently "endorses" one faction against another, it would even remove the problems associated with illegal aliens, as they would be paying into the system too, and thus entitled to its benefits....  

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« Last Edit: 01/10/15 at 10:11:49 by raydawg »  

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Reply #28 - 01/10/15 at 15:52:40
 
Quote:
... we will have "thought police"  ...


To late, they already are here.

Now, what do WE do about it?

Stick a head in the sand, and let it grow?
Or get involved, and reduce it ?

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Ben Franklin once said: "If you give up a freedom, for the sake of security, you will have neither".
Which is More TRUE, today, than yesterday.('06, S-40, Stock) well, mostly .
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Reply #29 - 01/10/15 at 16:32:21
 
raydawg wrote on 01/10/15 at 08:42:37:
I remember Rush said we will have "thought police" and it appears the talking head is a prophet too!

Actually, the biggest statist killers in history have been anti-religious...Joesph Stalin, (seven million murdered) Mao Zedung  (11 million murdered) Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge (2.5 million murdered)...These are just a few of historys non-religious mass murders, that list is actually quite large. (Including left wing idol, and mass murder, Ernesto (Che) Guevara.  


The estimates of the number of people killed by communism in the twentieth century is upwards of 100 million people.   Even more startling is the number of non-combatants killed by communist regimes in the twentieth century which approached 70 million people.   Mass killings include not only mass murders or executions that took place during the elimination of political opponents, terror campaigns, land reforms, but also lives lost due to famine, disease, and exhaustion in labor camps.

The Soviet Union was the greatest evil mankind has ever experienced with 50-60 million people who died from the over throw of the Romanov dynasty (1917) to approximately 1955.  If you are not familiar with Ayn Rand, that was why she dedicated her life’s work to forewarn the west of the consequences of a single party centralized state.   She was the only member of her family to survive the initial purges of the Bolsheviks .  In no uncertain terms, these deeds can only be attributed to far left wing ideologies.  

Incidentally, the concept of the “thought police” was created by George Orwell in 1949, with his book “1984”.

Best regards,
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