SuzukiSavage.com - The goodness of man.....

raydawg

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The goodness of man.....
01/26/17 at 04:44:18

I thought I would try a more focused post on virtue and morality, as the debate about Healthcare seemed to generate toward it.....

As T&T said, this dilemma has plagued man for centuries.

I think it's more that words, let's call it demagoguery....
Like a religious leader who preaches it, yet doesn't practice it.
Or like Robert Redford, who many in the religious like environmental movement believe his buying up huge amounts of land, to "protect" it, is virtue.....
Is it?
Or has he just used that as an avenue to isolate from civilization and all it's problems?

I don't know.....

Anybody want to field this?
Should we govern based on morals and virtue?

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Papa Bear

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Re: The goodness of man.....
Reply #1 - 01/26/17 at 05:44:18

The universe, and everything in it except humans, follows the Law of Nature (God's Law).
We humans struggle with that ......

Some may say humans are the highest life-form. Perhaps we are the lowest.

We have free will and often don't choose wisely (morally, lovingly). When we don't choose wisely there are always consequences - and those consequences affect the just as well as the un-just.

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MShipley

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Re: The goodness of man.....
Reply #2 - 01/26/17 at 06:35:30

Hummmmm, your question assumes that there are thing such as virtue, morality and ethics. As papa bear says, Humans are always the problem because we are the only known creature that acts by free will instead of instinct. The issue becomes what is moral, what is virtuous? There are basically three places that this can come from. Society can determine what is moral and right, we as individuals can determine what is moral and right or there can be a Transcendent moral law giver that determines what is moral, right and good.

If we say society defines this there are problems. Hitler thought it was good for mankind to rid the world of Jews. I think we would all agree that is not moral. In our own United States the Supreme Court has said that abortion is OK, some would agree and some wont.

If we say it's an individual issue and we create our own morality, right and wrong. Then why do we ever put people in jail? If I like to burn the eyes out of kittens with a hot pocker who are you to tell me that's wrong.

The other possibility is that there is a Transcendent law giver (God). But far to many people don't want to accept that, ever since Adam and Eve rebelled against God, because they thought they could be like God, man has been playing this game.

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raydawg

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Re: The goodness of man.....
Reply #3 - 01/26/17 at 07:55:15

Papa Bear wrote on 01/26/17 at 05:44:18:

The universe, and everything in it except humans, follows the Law of Nature (God's Law).
We humans struggle with that ......

Some may say humans are the highest life-form. Perhaps we are the lowest.

We have free will and often don't choose wisely (morally, lovingly). When we don't choose wisely there are always consequences - and those consequences affect the just as well as the un-just.

I agree, but is this a paradox?

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raydawg

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Re: The goodness of man.....
Reply #4 - 01/26/17 at 07:59:37

MShipley wrote on 01/26/17 at 06:35:30:

Hummmmm, your question assumes that there are thing such as virtue, morality and ethics. As papa bear says, Humans are always the problem because we are the only known creature that acts by free will instead of instinct. The issue becomes what is moral, what is virtuous? There are basically three places that this can come from. Society can determine what is moral and right, we as individuals can determine what is moral and right or there can be a Transcendent moral law giver that determines what is moral, right and good.

If we say society defines this there are problems. Hitler thought it was good for mankind to rid the world of Jews. I think we would all agree that is not moral. In our own United States the Supreme Court has said that abortion is OK, some would agree and some wont.

If we say it's an individual issue and we create our own morality, right and wrong. Then why do we ever put people in jail? If I like to burn the eyes out of kittens with a hot pocker who are you to tell me that's wrong.

The other possibility is that there is a Transcendent law giver (God). But far to many people don't want to accept that, ever since Adam and Eve rebelled against God, because they thought they could be like God, man has been playing this game.

Thank you, really liked your answer Shipley Cool

But, I stumble when you use the word problem, assign it to man, yet absolve animals for their instinct.
I think a lion might be a problem to many other animals Embarrassed

Maybe we need to look at motive to clarify instinct vs. free choice/will?

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Papa Bear Senior Member Offline Posts: 476 Canada ... near the Motor City Gender:	Re: The goodness of man..... Reply #5 - 01/26/17 at 09:12:43 raydawg wrote on 01/26/17 at 07:55:15: I agree, but is this a paradox? Everything is a paradox.
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Trippah

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Re: The goodness of man.....
Reply #6 - 01/26/17 at 09:20:46

Hey Philosophy majors... morality is the agreed upon set of rules for certain behaviors, (if you believe in God, then they are "his" rules unfortunately always (so far) brought to our attention through a human). The law of the jungle means each creature feeds on some other, and in turn is fed upon by something else; bacteria seem to be the bridge that fells the largest/toughest critters so the cycle can begin again. I don't think deer hate lions, they simply try to avoid them knowing lion is not good for their health. ((Trumpy should learn this..bad pun humour)). ;
Virtue is, I think, a man's willingness and striving to obey those rules or laws no matter how some other behavior seems more desirable at the moment. For example: if our code is one woman for one man (at a time), the hottie wearing only a thong is off limits :'( :'( :'(

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verslagen1 YaBB Moderator ModSquad Offline Where there's a will, I want to be in it. Posts: 29042 L.A. California Gender:	Re: The goodness of man..... Reply #7 - 01/26/17 at 09:21:59 Papa Bear wrote on 01/26/17 at 09:12:43: raydawg wrote on 01/26/17 at 07:55:15: I agree, but is this a paradox? Everything is a paradox. pair a ducks? why not a chicken?
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Paraquat Serious Thumper Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 2206	Re: The goodness of man..... Reply #8 - 01/26/17 at 09:30:50 If you think there's good in everybody, you haven't met everybody. --Steve
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Trippah Serious Thumper Offline I ride, therefore I am. Posts: 2517 central Mass Gender:	Re: The goodness of man..... Reply #9 - 01/26/17 at 09:45:01 It does all boil down to that: why do good people do bad things, and why do some bad people do good things? As far as chickens go, they cross the road to get away from Perdue.
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raydawg Serious Thumper Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 11551 pacific northwest Gender:	Re: The goodness of man..... Reply #10 - 01/26/17 at 10:01:11 Keep your ducks and chickens...... I'm going for the thong hottie, screw viture, if that's even her name
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MShipley

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Re: The goodness of man.....
Reply #11 - 01/26/17 at 10:09:38

Interesting stuff. No there is not good in everyone, in fact I would say the opposite. Let me paint a couple pictures!

Dog A has a bowl of food. Dog B is hungry (by the way she has hungry puppies) She goes and kills dog A and takes the food. Did the dog do anything immoral? Did the dog sin?

Now replace Dog with Human.

Out of all of creatures on this planet, (to our knowledge) only humans understand this concept of right, wrong, moral, immoral. We should ask ourselves the question why? It is totally against all (known) naturalistic processes to develop in our character, guilt! Guilt is contrary to all we see in the natural word.

I disagree with the statement above that morality is an agreed upon set of behaviors. Yes I am a theist, but murder is either wrong or it is not wrong. Once again the Nazi's were OK with what they did. If morality is variable then why did they go on trial for war crimes?

I will tell you guys that I love the study of worldviews. Quite often I have people that are not theist throw out that everlasting question, "if there is a God then why are there people dying of hunger in Africa." My first response is always a question. "Why do you care?

You see if all we have is naturalistic processes, and we are just a different species of animal like bears, ant, and pigs. If morality and virtue are nothing but the sum of what a particular group of people think, If there is no judgment that we ever have to face because of our actions again, why should we care? If they die that's more for us.

But we DO CARE! That is the paradox. I would tell you that the law of God given to us through the (hand or writing) of man is written on everyone's heart, just as God states.

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T And T Garage

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Re: The goodness of man.....
Reply #12 - 01/26/17 at 11:22:22

Trippah wrote on 01/26/17 at 09:20:46:

Hey Philosophy majors... morality is the agreed upon set of rules for certain behaviors, (if you believe in God, then they are "his" rules unfortunately always (so far) brought to our attention through a human). The law of the jungle means each creature feeds on some other, and in turn is fed upon by something else; bacteria seem to be the bridge that fells the largest/toughest critters so the cycle can begin again. I don't think deer hate lions, they simply try to avoid them knowing lion is not good for their health. ((Trumpy should learn this..bad pun humour)). ;
Virtue is, I think, a man's willingness and striving to obey those rules or laws no matter how some other behavior seems more desirable at the moment. For example: if our code is one woman for one man (at a time), the hottie wearing only a thong is off limits :'( :'( :'(

Well put - but WHAT gives man that willingness?

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T And T Garage

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Re: The goodness of man.....
Reply #13 - 01/26/17 at 11:41:21

MShipley wrote on 01/26/17 at 10:09:38:

Interesting stuff. No there is not good in everyone, in fact I would say the opposite. Let me paint a couple pictures!

Dog A has a bowl of food. Dog B is hungry (by the way she has hungry puppies) She goes and kills dog A and takes the food. Did the dog do anything immoral? Did the dog sin?

Now replace Dog with Human.

Out of all of creatures on this planet, (to our knowledge) only humans understand this concept of right, wrong, moral, immoral. We should ask ourselves the question why? It is totally against all (known) naturalistic processes to develop in our character, guilt! Guilt is contrary to all we see in the natural word.

I disagree with the statement above that morality is an agreed upon set of behaviors. Yes I am a theist, but murder is either wrong or it is not wrong. Once again the Nazi's were OK with what they did. If morality is variable then why did they go on trial for war crimes?

I will tell you guys that I love the study of worldviews. Quite often I have people that are not theist throw out that everlasting question, "if there is a God then why are there people dying of hunger in Africa." My first response is always a question. "Why do you care?

You see if all we have is naturalistic processes, and we are just a different species of animal like bears, ant, and pigs. If morality and virtue are nothing but the sum of what a particular group of people think, If there is no judgment that we ever have to face because of our actions again, why should we care? If they die that's more for us.

But we DO CARE! That is the paradox. I would tell you that the law of God given to us through the (hand or writing) of man is written on everyone's heart, just as God states.

Also very well put. But the word of God (as you said) is passed through man - interpreted. You can certainly call virtue God - but what of hate, greed, jealousy, lust, want, etc.? Are those not also God?

I'm by no means a theologist, nor an atheist. Like many, I'm agnostic and don't think any one answer is the right one. But humans have risen to this place on this planet for a reason. Perhaps someday we'll find out why.

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raydawg

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Re: The goodness of man.....
Reply #14 - 01/26/17 at 12:50:37

Yes, I like this.
But I feel we are not created with knowledge of a God.....
For if we were, then this paradox would cease to exsist.
We do not know right, from wrong, but as you all have pointed out, culture decides that.
Instead, I say we are created with a need, a void, almost instinct like, when you are hungry, you seek food.....
When I am horny, I play my trumpet Grin

This explanation explains addictions, which persuades all of us, some obvious, most not.
It drives ambitions, compition, and a lot of our "instincts" if we do not gain control of them, mostly simple obedience, yet we justify all sorts of crazy reasons to not.

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