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what's it gonna take? (Read 217 times)
T And T Garage
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Re: what's it gonna take?
Reply #45 - 05/25/17 at 18:29:32
 
oldNslow wrote on 05/25/17 at 17:51:31:
T And T Garage wrote on 05/25/17 at 17:39:04:
oldNslow wrote on 05/25/17 at 16:36:00:
Quote:
 Islam does NOT encourage killing infidels


Good to know. I can't help but notice though, that a bunch of Islamists seem to be doing exactly that. Probably just a coincidence. Roll Eyes


And it's a good thing that Christians never kill infidels.... oh wait...



Even if true, that's utterly and totally irrelevant to the present state of affairs. It isn't Christians, or atheists, or Druids, or fill in the blank_____, who are doing it right now, in the name of their religious ideology. But we both know who is. Don't we?


Yeah, we do know - they're called "terrorists".
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T And T Garage
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Re: what's it gonna take?
Reply #46 - 05/25/17 at 18:35:00
 
WebsterMark wrote on 05/25/17 at 17:59:24:
T And T Garage wrote on 05/25/17 at 17:39:04:
oldNslow wrote on 05/25/17 at 16:36:00:
Quote:
 Islam does NOT encourage killing infidels


Good to know. I can't help but notice though, that a bunch of Islamists seem to be doing exactly that. Probably just a coincidence. Roll Eyes


And it's a good thing that Christians never kill infidels.... oh wait...


In the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit? Pretty darn rare.  When you hear a story about a bomb going off in a subway killing dozens, no one's first thought is another Christian just blew himself up.


Yeah, just like when you hear about a lynching:

http://www.thenation.com/article/lynching-university-maryland-campus/

Or a hate killing:

http://www.mediamatters.org/blog/2016/11/04/white-racist-kills-two-cops-iowa-...



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oldNslow
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Re: what's it gonna take?
Reply #47 - 05/25/17 at 18:42:10
 
T And T Garage wrote on 05/25/17 at 18:29:32:
oldNslow wrote on 05/25/17 at 17:51:31:
T And T Garage wrote on 05/25/17 at 17:39:04:
oldNslow wrote on 05/25/17 at 16:36:00:
Quote:
 Islam does NOT encourage killing infidels


Good to know. I can't help but notice though, that a bunch of Islamists seem to be doing exactly that. Probably just a coincidence. Roll Eyes


And it's a good thing that Christians never kill infidels.... oh wait...



Even if true, that's utterly and totally irrelevant to the present state of affairs. It isn't Christians, or atheists, or Druids, or fill in the blank_____, who are doing it right now, in the name of their religious ideology. But we both know who is. Don't we?


Yeah, we do know - they're called "terrorists".


You left out a word. "Islamic" Semantic games don't change the facts even if you insist on pretending that they are not what they are.
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Re: what's it gonna take?
Reply #48 - 05/25/17 at 19:31:10
 
T And T Garage wrote on 05/25/17 at 18:35:00:


Did you even read the first article.  He wasn't lynched, he was stabbed.   What does that have to do with Christianity as well.   Undecided

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Re: what's it gonna take?
Reply #49 - 05/25/17 at 19:43:13
 
T And T Garage wrote on 05/25/17 at 13:57:18:
Regardless of what you might think or are led to believe, Islam does NOT encourage killing infidels any more than does the Judaeo-Christian faith.


The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers for the sake of Islamic rule. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter.

Quran
Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun(the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)" (Translation is from the Noble Quran) The verse prior to this (190) refers to "fighting for the cause of Allah those who fight you" leading some to claim that the entire passage refers to a defensive war in which Muslims are defending their homes and families.  The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, however, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries.  In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did).  Verse 190 thus means to fight those who offer resistance to Allah's rule (ie. Muslim conquest).  The use of the word "persecution" by some Muslim translators is disingenuous - the actual Arabic words for persecution (idtihad) - and oppression are not used instead of fitna.  Fitna can mean disbelief, or the disorder that results from unbelief or temptation.  A strict translation is 'sedition,' meaning rebellion against authority (the authority being Allah).  This is certainly what is meant in this context since the violence is explicitly commissioned "until religion is for Allah" - ie. unbelievers desist in their unbelief.  [Editor's note: these notes have been modified slightly after a critic misinterpreted our language. Verse 193 plainly says that 'fighting' is sanctioned even if the fitna 'ceases'.  This is about religious order, not real persecution.]

Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. From the Hadith, we know that this verse was narrated at a time that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding merchant caravans for loot.

Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').

Quran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward." The martyrs of Islam are unlike the early Christians, who were led meekly to the slaughter. These Muslims are killed in battle as they attempt to inflict death and destruction for the cause of Allah. This is the theological basis for today's suicide bombers.

Quran (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"

Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

Quran (4:95) - "Not equal are those of the believers who sit (at home), except those who are disabled (by injury or are blind or lame, etc.), and those who strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah with their wealth and their lives. Allah has preferred in grades those who strive hard and fight with their wealth and their lives above those who sit (at home).Unto each, Allah has promised good (Paradise), but Allah has preferred those who strive hard and fight, above those who sit (at home) by a huge reward " This passage criticizes "peaceful" Muslims who do not join in the violence, letting them know that they are less worthy in Allah's eyes. It also demolishes the modern myth that "Jihad" doesn't mean holy war in the Quran, but rather a spiritual struggle. Not only is this Arabic word (mujahiduna) used in this passage, but it is clearly not referring to anything spiritual, since the physically disabled are given exemption. (The Hadith reveals the context of the passage to be in response to a blind man's protest that he is unable to engage in Jihad, which would not make sense if it meant an internal struggle).

Quran (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..." Is pursuing an injured and retreating enemy really an act of self-defense?

Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle.  The targets of violence are "those who disbelieve" - further defined in the next verse (13) as "defy and disobey Allah." Nothing is said about self-defense.  In fact, the verses in sura 8 were narrated shortly after a battle provoked by Muhammad, who had been trying to attack a lightly-armed caravan to steal goods belonging to other people.

Quran (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."

Quran (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion is all for Allah" Some translations interpret "fitna" as "persecution", but the traditional understanding of this word is not supported by the historical context (See notes for 2:193). The Meccans were simply refusing Muhammad access to their city during Haj. Other Muslims were allowed to travel there - just not as an armed group, since Muhammad had declared war on Mecca prior to his eviction. The Meccans were also acting in defense of their religion, as it was Muhammad's intention to destroy their idols and establish Islam by force (which he later did). Hence the critical part of this verse is to fight until "religion is only for Allah", meaning that the true justification of violence was the unbelief of the opposition. According to the Sira (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 324) Muhammad further explains that "Allah must have no rivals."

Quran (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."

Quran (8:67) - "It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he had made a great slaughter in the land..."

Quran (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy." As Ibn Kathir puts it in his tafsir on this passage, "Allah commands Muslims to prepare for war against disbelievers, as much as possible, according to affordability and availability."

Quran (8:65) - "O Prophet, exhort the believers to fight..."

Quran (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them." According to this verse, the best way of staying safe from Muslim violence at the time of Muhammad was to convert to Islam: prayer (salat) and the poor tax (zakat) are among the religion's Five Pillars. The popular claim that the Quran only inspires violence within the context of self-defense is seriously challenged by this passage as well, since the Muslims to whom it was written were obviously not under attack. Had they been, then there would have been no waiting period (earlier verses make it a duty for Muslims to fight in self-defense, even during the sacred months). The historical context is Mecca after the idolaters were subjugated by Muhammad and posed no threat. Once the Muslims had power, they violently evicted those unbelievers who would not convert.

[Note: The verse says to fight unbelievers "wherever you find them". Even if the context is in a time of battle (which it was not) the reading appears to sanction attacks against those "unbelievers" who are not on the battlefield.  In 2016, the Islamic State referred to this verse in urging the faithful to commit terror attacks: Allah did not only command the 'fighting' of disbelievers, as if to say He only wants us to conduct frontline operations against them. Rather, He has also ordered that they be slain wherever they may be – on or off the battlefield. (source)]

Quran (9:14) - "Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of a believing people." Humiliating and hurting non-believers not only has the blessing of Allah, but it is ordered as a means of carrying out his punishment and even "healing" the hearts of Muslims.

Quran (9:20) - "Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah's way are of much greater worth in Allah's sight. These are they who are triumphant." The Arabic word interpreted as "striving" in this verse is the same root as "Jihad". The context is obviously holy war.

Best regards,
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WebsterMark
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Re: what's it gonna take?
Reply #50 - 05/25/17 at 19:46:29
 
T And T Garage wrote on 05/25/17 at 18:35:00:
WebsterMark wrote on 05/25/17 at 17:59:24:
T And T Garage wrote on 05/25/17 at 17:39:04:
oldNslow wrote on 05/25/17 at 16:36:00:
Quote:
 Islam does NOT encourage killing infidels


Good to know. I can't help but notice though, that a bunch of Islamists seem to be doing exactly that. Probably just a coincidence. Roll Eyes


And it's a good thing that Christians never kill infidels.... oh wait...


In the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit? Pretty darn rare.  When you hear a story about a bomb going off in a subway killing dozens, no one's first thought is another Christian just blew himself up.


Yeah, just like when you hear about a lynching:

http://www.thenation.com/article/lynching-university-maryland-campus/

Or a hate killing:

http://www.mediamatters.org/blog/2016/11/04/white-racist-kills-two-cops-iowa-...





I know you'll dodge this question like you always do when cornered but did those guys yell in the name of jesus i kill you? No.

Did a christian group call in and take responsibility? No.

So what the F is your point?  You really have no desire to discuss anything, you're just stiring $hit up, but at least post something relevant. Pathetic, just pathetic. I'm done with you for a while.
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T And T Garage
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Re: what's it gonna take?
Reply #51 - 05/25/17 at 20:04:35
 
Here ya ago PG:

http://www.evilbible.com/evil-bible-home-page/murder-in-the-bible/

And some more:

Ephesians 6:12
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

Deuteronomy 21:18-21
“If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, and they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones. So you shall purge the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Deuteronomy 17:1-20
“You shall not sacrifice to the Lord your God an ox or a sheep in which is a blemish, any defect whatever, for that is an abomination to the Lord your God. “If there is found among you, within any of your towns that the Lord your God is giving you, a man or woman who does what is evil in the sight of the Lord your God, in transgressing his covenant, and has gone and served other gods and worshiped them, or the sun or the moon or any of the host of heaven, which I have forbidden, and it is told you and you hear of it, then you shall inquire diligently, and if it is true and certain that such an abomination has been done in Israel, then you shall bring out to your gates that man or woman who has done this evil thing, and you shall stone that man or woman to death with stones. ...

More from Deuteronomy....

Deuteronomy 13:
6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. 9 You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 11 Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again.
12 If you hear it said about one of the towns the Lord your God is giving you to live in 13 that troublemakers have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods you have not known), 14 then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, 15 you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. You must destroy it completely, both its people and its livestock. 16 You are to gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. That town is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt.

Leviticus 20:27
“A man or a woman who is a medium or a necromancer shall surely be put to death. They shall be stoned with stones; their blood shall be upon them.”

Luke 19:27
But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.’”

Luke 18:30
Who will not receive many times more in this time, and in the age to come eternal life.”

Matthew 13:40
Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age.

Matthew 13:39
And the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the close of the age, and the reapers are angels.


Yeah... the Bible is nothing like the Quran at all.....
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T And T Garage
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Re: what's it gonna take?
Reply #52 - 05/25/17 at 20:10:52
 
WebsterMark wrote on 05/25/17 at 19:46:29:
I know you'll dodge this question like you always do when cornered but did those guys yell in the name of jesus i kill you? No.

I wasn't there... but I doubt it.  But do you realize that every single terrorist attack has been condemned by Muslims?  These morons are NOT Muslims, they are terrorists!  What is so tough to understand?

They hide behind religion - just like the right wing extremists hide behind racial purity, just like the IRA hid behind a free Ireland.

Did a christian group call in and take responsibility? No.

So what the F is your point?  You really have no desire to discuss anything, you're just stiring $hit up, but at least post something relevant. Pathetic, just pathetic. I'm done with you for a while.


Bye bye web....
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Re: what's it gonna take?
Reply #53 - 05/25/17 at 20:38:57
 
T And T Garage wrote on 05/25/17 at 20:04:35:
Yeah... the Bible is nothing like the Quran at all.....



The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers for the sake of Islamic rule.

Perhaps you could show me some verses where Jesus calls people to death in order to propagate Christianity.

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Re: what's it gonna take?
Reply #54 - 05/25/17 at 22:00:57
 
It's pointless. They know squat about the federal reserve and pretend that those who do are nuts. They don't know what difference it makes to argue Old Testament and pretend that That is what we practice.
The arrogance and ignorance can't be countered even with facts.
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The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.- Edmund Burke.
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Re: what's it gonna take?
Reply #55 - 05/26/17 at 04:05:47
 
I don't know if TT is Beavis or Butthead but he's definitely one of them.

I'm off for a long weekend. Let's hope those Christians don't send in a suicide bomber to blow up some more kids in the name of Jesus at a Katy Perry concert....

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Re: what's it gonna take?
Reply #56 - 05/26/17 at 05:58:40
 
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/05/26/egypt-attack-gunfire-on-bus-carrying-...


They keep telling us this  themselves. And yet some people refuse to believe them. I find that astonishing.

From the story:

"God gave orders to kill every infidel," one of the militants carrying an AK-47 assault rifle said in the 20-minute video."

"In February, members of an ISIS affiliate released a video saying that Egyptian Christians were their "favorite prey."
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Re: what's it gonna take?
Reply #57 - 05/26/17 at 06:12:07
 
Having good sense is not PC.
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The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.- Edmund Burke.
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Re: what's it gonna take?
Reply #58 - 05/26/17 at 17:00:44
 
T And T Garage wrote on 05/24/17 at 13:54:57:
I agree!  Religion is the root of it all!!!
(there has never been a terrorist attack that came from atheists...)


Your ideology was the foundation of that killed tens of millions of innocent noncombatant citizens by their government.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism


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Re: what's it gonna take?
Reply #59 - 05/27/17 at 05:19:40
 
justin_o_guy2 wrote on 05/25/17 at 12:00:30:
It's not gambling when you know the answer.


I'm reading a book called How Not to be Wrong: The Power of Mathematical thinking. It's a lot of statistics.

In the middle it tells the story of how some MIT students gamed the Massachusetts lottery. It began and ended with a quote:

"If gambling is exciting, you're doing it wrong"


--Steve
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