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So, was Trump right? (Read 148 times)
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Re: So, was Trump right?
Reply #15 - 08/30/17 at 12:22:58
 
Eegore wrote on 08/30/17 at 12:13:25:
 I didn't say anything about rights. I was just answering the question of who decides, you tossed in choices that weren't accurate where I live.  Party in power and Judges are part of it but not exclusive.

 I'm still waiting for an answer about "Gathering in mass really is encroaching on other freedoms, when it impacts the lives of others."

Don't hold your breath Eegore...

 Even if the impact is positive like registering sex offenders?

 Also interested in if demonstrators hold people "Captive" using the proper definition of that word where you live, without laws directing otherwise.  

 You stated: I think the debate now is, should we allow folks to demonstrate

 

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Re: So, was Trump right?
Reply #16 - 08/30/17 at 12:24:40
 
What we are seeing is huge demonstrations with people being trucked in to support one thing or another.  
Demonstrations normally are to incite the residents to support a cause/convince the administration to vote a certain way.

What if demonstrations were limited to residents?
demo's in cities limited to city/county residents.
demo's in state capitols limited to state residents.
demo's in the US capitols would be not limited in any way.
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Re: So, was Trump right?
Reply #17 - 08/30/17 at 12:31:47
 
Eegore wrote on 08/30/17 at 12:13:25:
 I didn't say anything about rights. I was just answering the question of who decides, you tossed in choices that weren't accurate where I live.  Party in power and Judges are part of it but not exclusive.

 I'm still waiting for an answer about "Gathering in mass really is encroaching on other freedoms, when it impacts the lives of others."

 Even if the impact is positive like registering sex offenders?

 Also interested in if demonstrators hold people "Captive" using the proper definition of that word where you live, without laws directing otherwise.  

 You stated: I think the debate now is, should we allow folks to demonstrate

 


Sorry, off to work now, but a quick answer is if you look at the video that took place Oregon, folks were trapped in traffic, etc.
I call that being held against your will.

In Seattle, these crowds have been greatly disturbing businesses, and targeting their demonstrations at peak commerce times, etc.

I recall seeing a video of a woman with small children in her car, panic, and hit demonstrators as she tried to flee, a few years ago, wrong place, at the wrong time....

   
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Re: So, was Trump right?
Reply #18 - 08/30/17 at 12:38:06
 
verslagen1 wrote on 08/30/17 at 12:24:40:
What we are seeing is huge demonstrations with people being trucked in to support one thing or another.  
Demonstrations normally are to incite the residents to support a cause/convince the administration to vote a certain way.

What if demonstrations were limited to residents?
demo's in cities limited to city/county residents.
demo's in state capitols limited to state residents.
demo's in the US capitols would be not limited in any way.



You could never enforce that.  Freedom of speech can't be contained within borders of cities, counties or states.

If I hear there's a march in a neighboring city protesting facism, I'm there.  At the same time, if Wisconsin nazis want to march with the Illinois nazis, go right ahead - I'll be there with my sign standing against them (as they might be against me at my rally).

It's no different than having all my friends in Milwaukee come down to Chicago for the Toys For Tots Ride in December.  Riding for a cause across borders.
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Re: So, was Trump right?
Reply #19 - 08/30/17 at 12:39:18
 
raydawg wrote on 08/30/17 at 12:31:47:
Eegore wrote on 08/30/17 at 12:13:25:
 I didn't say anything about rights. I was just answering the question of who decides, you tossed in choices that weren't accurate where I live.  Party in power and Judges are part of it but not exclusive.

 I'm still waiting for an answer about "Gathering in mass really is encroaching on other freedoms, when it impacts the lives of others."

 Even if the impact is positive like registering sex offenders?

 Also interested in if demonstrators hold people "Captive" using the proper definition of that word where you live, without laws directing otherwise.  

 You stated: I think the debate now is, should we allow folks to demonstrate

 


Sorry, off to work now, but a quick answer is if you look at the video that took place Oregon, folks were trapped in traffic, etc.
I call that being held against your will.

In Seattle, these crowds have been greatly disturbing businesses, and targeting their demonstrations at peak commerce times, etc.

I recall seeing a video of a woman with small children in her car, panic, and hit demonstrators as she tried to flee, a few years ago, wrong place, at the wrong time...
   


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Re: So, was Trump right?
Reply #20 - 08/30/17 at 12:43:43
 
T And T Garage wrote on 08/30/17 at 12:38:06:
verslagen1 wrote on 08/30/17 at 12:24:40:
What we are seeing is huge demonstrations with people being trucked in to support one thing or another.  
Demonstrations normally are to incite the residents to support a cause/convince the administration to vote a certain way.

What if demonstrations were limited to residents?
demo's in cities limited to city/county residents.
demo's in state capitols limited to state residents.
demo's in the US capitols would be not limited in any way.



You could never enforce that.  Freedom of speech can't be contained within borders of cities, counties or states.

If I hear there's a march in a neighboring city protesting facism, I'm there.  At the same time, if Wisconsin nazis want to march with the Illinois nazis, go right ahead - I'll be there with my sign standing against them (as they might be against me at my rally).

It's no different than having all my friends in Milwaukee come down to Chicago for the Toys For Tots Ride in December.  Riding for a cause across borders.

And yet you can except w/out question that police can set up barricades and check for weapons. SMH.
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Re: So, was Trump right?
Reply #21 - 08/30/17 at 12:56:07
 
verslagen1 wrote on 08/30/17 at 12:43:43:
And yet you can except w/out question that police can set up barricades and check for weapons. SMH.


Did I say that?  Where?  Hey, I'm no sheriff joe (wait, he does that with people who look foreign)....LOL

I accept (but sometimes question) what's constitutional.  I question (and have to accept) things I believe to be unconstitutional (helmet laws, seat belt laws, legal drinking age, etc.)

I have no opinion of being stopped for weapons - that's never happened to me.  I have, however, gone through more than one barricade set up for finding drunk drivers.  I have almost no problem with that.  It's a waste of time IMO, but it does net a few drunks on the road.
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Re: So, was Trump right?
Reply #22 - 08/30/17 at 15:31:35
 
And it's illegal
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Re: So, was Trump right?
Reply #23 - 08/30/17 at 17:12:42
 
A yep......

unlawful search and seizure amendment
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Re: So, was Trump right?
Reply #24 - 08/31/17 at 05:48:26
 
"Sorry, off to work now, but a quick answer is if you look at the video that took place Oregon, folks were trapped in traffic, etc.
I call that being held against your will.

In Seattle, these crowds have been greatly disturbing businesses, and targeting their demonstrations at peak commerce times, etc.

I recall seeing a video of a woman with small children in her car, panic, and hit demonstrators as she tried to flee, a few years ago, wrong place, at the wrong time...."

 That part I specifically indicated about "Without laws directing otherwise" I would like to see addressed.  In the examples you stated are there no laws about mass gatherings stopping traffic?  Impeding business?  Vehicular manslaughter?

 Or maybe there are laws/statutes/ordinance that need to be examined and methods of enforcement adjusted to be effective.

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Re: So, was Trump right?
Reply #25 - 08/31/17 at 05:53:41
 
Corner someone and then get hurt..
And blame them.
Put me on the jury, please.

Is a Law needed to tell us what is right?
You're walking down the sidewalk and two guys decide to block your path. No matter which way you turn, one blocks your path. Do you have the Right to break a jaw or fold a knee backwards?
I would support you if you did.
Surround a mother and her kids?
You're begging for it. And deserve it.
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Re: So, was Trump right?
Reply #26 - 08/31/17 at 09:35:40
 
We had situation in St Louis last week. Some group was protesting whatever the latest little thing to piss someone off.... and they were doing the current fad of blocking traffic.  It was a small protest as protest goes these days and some guy turns the corner and gets behind them. All the details haven't come out but a camera on a building shows him turning, coming behind them, honking, the crowd descends on his car, a couple people start pounding on it, he accelerates, knocks a few down (no serious injuries) and tears off. He doesn't stop for a cop until a few blocks later. He's arrested and charged now The protestors are telling one story, he's telling another and the video seems to support him.
Sorry, but that dude is F'd. His life will be hell. If he escapes jail, he'll certainly get license suspended etc..

Now, I have no idea yet if he did it on purpose or not, but if we're going to let people block traffic and bang on cars, I can't see prosecuting for accidents.

Note: this is NOT the same situation as Charlottesville so don't anyone try to equate these two events.



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Re: So, was Trump right?
Reply #27 - 08/31/17 at 09:49:04
 
Eegore wrote on 08/31/17 at 05:48:26:
"Sorry, off to work now, but a quick answer is if you look at the video that took place Oregon, folks were trapped in traffic, etc.
I call that being held against your will.

In Seattle, these crowds have been greatly disturbing businesses, and targeting their demonstrations at peak commerce times, etc.

I recall seeing a video of a woman with small children in her car, panic, and hit demonstrators as she tried to flee, a few years ago, wrong place, at the wrong time...."

 That part I specifically indicated about "Without laws directing otherwise" I would like to see addressed.  In the examples you stated are there no laws about mass gatherings stopping traffic?  Impeding business?  Vehicular manslaughter?

 Or maybe there are laws/statutes/ordinance that need to be examined and methods of enforcement adjusted to be effective.



Yes there are laws.....

However, it seems that by demonstrators very nature, they want attention, would you agree?

They then use their collective size, a real herd mentality, to do whatever they deem necessary to get their attention, and that is to do things that break those laws.

That is why I draw a parallel, of an activity, that has the propensity, to cause harm and damage, to others, by its very nature, with maybe putting more restrictions on it like the popular thought more gun control, ladled upon legal gun owners, will control gun crime.

Should we put limits of size, etc, on demonstrations using the same reasoning?    
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Re: So, was Trump right?
Reply #28 - 08/31/17 at 09:49:30
 
WebsterMark wrote on 08/31/17 at 09:35:40:
We had situation in St Louis last week. Some group was protesting whatever the latest little thing to piss someone off.... and they were doing the current fad of blocking traffic.  It was a small protest as protest goes these days and some guy turns the corner and gets behind them. All the details haven't come out but a camera on a building shows him turning, coming behind them, honking, the crowd descends on his car, a couple people start pounding on it, he accelerates, knocks a few down (no serious injuries) and tears off. He doesn't stop for a cop until a few blocks later. He's arrested and charged now The protestors are telling one story, he's telling another and the video seems to support him.
Sorry, but that dude is F'd. His life will be hell. If he escapes jail, he'll certainly get license suspended etc..

Now, I have no idea yet if he did it on purpose or not, but if we're going to let people block traffic and bang on cars, I can't see prosecuting for accidents.

Note: this is NOT the same situation as Charlottesville so don't anyone try to equate these two events.



Where were the cops?  In Chicago, I've seen people get arrested on the spot for blocking a street.

The protesters you mention were breaking the law.  The guy made a dumb decision and hurt someone.  Stupidity on both sides.  Unless the guy in the car did it on purpose, he's not F'd.

If the video supports his claim, then it will do just that.  And if it's a good enough video, maybe some of the protesters will be questioned and charged.
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Re: So, was Trump right?
Reply #29 - 08/31/17 at 09:50:02
 

"I think the debate now is, should we allow folks to demonstrate"

 Again the examples being provided are as far as I know already addressed by current laws.  Why is there a debate on if people should be allowed to demonstrate?  

 Very little of what has been presented as a possible argument for debate is an issue already covered by current laws.

 

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