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Book ... (Read 185 times)
Eegore
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Re: Book ...
Reply #15 - 05/13/18 at 18:17:49
 
Matchless G11 wrote on 05/12/18 at 03:25:39:
[color=#0000ff] We say the National Guard would have come and murdered thousands of people if we werent armed, and we all know thats not true.  Nobody would have enacted martial law over people throwing local politicians out of office because they acted against their constituents.  It wasnt the 2nd Amendment, its simply bad publicity, and terrible logistics to clean up that many bodies.
 
[/color]

 
Eegore
There are people who suffered under Hitler , Pol Pot, Stalin and Mao.
who might differ with you and your above statement.
[/quote]


I believe the situation that I was in and the situations leaders documented above are not close enough to bridge the gap without looking far into the structure of each government within its initial development and modernization into the time of said leaders decisions. Also each happen prior to today's usage of modern media.

 I believe that the mass murder of citizens in one county of the US because they are using legal means to remove politicians from office is unlikely not because it has never happened, but simply because it would be more trouble than its worth.  
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Re: Book ...
Reply #16 - 05/14/18 at 07:26:35
 
Eegore wrote on 05/13/18 at 18:11:49:
 Primarily Japan but also in order of most recent documented conversations: UK Ireland Germany Norway Sweden Brazil Peru Argentina Chile   These are broken down into individuals in which I have had direct contact in their country on more than 8 occasions for a duration of more than 60 days.  I left out places I have not been to such as Australia although I know people there that do not think the 2nd Amendment is directly correlated with our modern day media rights and content or "Freedom of Press".    There was no direct discussion regarding gun support from each individual as the topic was regarding modern media and if they believed that without a 2nd Amendment that US citizens would not have a Freedom of Press.  I can ask them each if they are "gun supporters" and clarify that is the individual ownership of firearms in the home.


First this post was changed to, ‘Freedom of the PRESS’.  Which ‘Freedom of the Press’ is a Part of, ‘Freedom of Speech’.  In a ‘Book’, Just because it is printed words, and bound, the, ‘Freedom’ to say what one wants, IS, the 1st, Amendment. Of course, outside things like shouting ‘Fire’ in a crowded theater, when their is not a fire, and it is meant to cause harm, or perhaps it is a prank, but does cause harm. (That is to get ahead of a counter, which if I said, ‘…shouting fire in a theater…”, someone could say: “ Nothing Wrong with that, and NO one has Ever been prosecuted for shouting ‘fire’, in a theater, when their is a fire)

Now going back to the people you have talked to from other countries, which you say have said their, ‘freedom of speech/press’, is just as good as the one in the USA, and their is no need for a  2nd, to protect it. Their is a distinct difference, in the way you are contacting these people, and the way, those people have, contacted me.  In most cases, coming to the place where I sell something they are interested in, instead of being approached by you to sell/give them something. It is a, Huge, difference.  Just like selling something in Minn. on a Monday, after the Vikings Lost a game on Sun. Sit at the desk and do paperwork. Or the,’Team’, Won, forget the paperwork, make hay while the sun shines.

Some thoughts on, ‘Freedom of Press’.  Could it be, that they believe their press is Free, because they know/experienced, nothing else ?  Because they have been told it is ? Do they believe if you are, ‘giving’, something, will they not say what they believe you want to hear ?  If you are selling something, do they believe that if they say, what they believe you want to here, they will get a better price ?  Are they afraid to speak badly of their, freedom of the press, because if the wrong person hears them, they will just ‘disappear’ ?  

The statement from a previous post: "…In 2016, a television ad which advocated that babies with Down Syndrome shouldn’t be aborted solely because of their syndrome ran. It was ruled anti-abortion speech and removed….”, Is  from France,  (France because of someones, ’Toaster’)  It is a Statement, which, here, in the US, would most definitely be considered, ‘censorship’, at the very least.  (Now again, believing it was, ‘removed’, by a policy/law/directive, by a government).  It would not have been, ‘removed’ by the company/station, that aired it, it just wouldn’t have been aired in the first place. If it was that stations, Policy.  (Very much like the, ‘Policy’, of several ‘news’ stations, to not report any ‘news’, which does not fit their policy, or if it is big, and all over elsewhere, to spin it, or out and out lie, so it does fit their policy.)

Oh, one more note:  You said, ‘Brazil’.  Wondering what position, that person, your contact, has in the Government ?
In fact, what contact/ties/association to their, ’government’, do any of these people you contact have.


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Ben Franklin once said: "If you give up a freedom, for the sake of security, you will have neither".
Which is More TRUE, today, than yesterday.('06, S-40, Stock) well, mostly .
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Re: Book ...
Reply #17 - 05/14/18 at 08:02:46
 
" Could it be, that they believe their press is Free, because they know/experienced, nothing else ?"

 Not typically, and we would have to define "know/experience" for instance how much knowledge/experience do you have with Japan and their press structure in comparison to how much they have with ours?  We would have to define the terms then compare for each location per individual.  

"Do they believe if you are, ‘giving’, something, will they not say what they believe you want to hear ?"

 No.  There is no exchange of goods, donation or otherwise, these are people with whom I work or have worked with on various projects and have maintained contact with.  The shortest is 9 years.

" Are they afraid to speak badly of their, freedom of the press, because if the wrong person hears them, they will just ‘disappear’ ?"

 No.  None of them believe they will be murdered or incarcerated for communicating their opinion about the US 2nd Amendment in correlation to the US Freedom of Press/Assembly and their own respective countries rights.  Communication is not encrypted or otherwise kept private.  They are ok with their statements being public and tied to their actual identity.


"Oh, one more note:  You said, ‘Brazil’.  Wondering what position, that person, your contact, has in the Government ?
In fact, what contact/ties/association to their, ’government’, do any of these people you contact have."


 None.  They are citizens, 4 of them holding duel citizenship of the country they are talking about.


 There is in my opinion no conspiracy or danger here to anyone.  These people simply do not believe that the 2nd Amendment is protecting the US Freedom of Speech at this time.  This belief stems from their own location of residency having similar, not exact freedoms of press and assembly however they do not have a 2nd Amendment or similar.

 Its that simple, they just perceive it that way and I can see why as I have been to these locations myself several times for extended durations of time.  



 
 
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Re: Book ...
Reply #18 - 05/14/18 at 09:03:03
 
Eegore wrote on 05/14/18 at 08:02:46:
"... ... There is in my opinion no conspiracy or danger here to anyone.  These people simply do not believe that the 2nd Amendment is protecting the US Freedom of Speech at this time. ..."(Compleate text in post #17)   


Using France as a example because of a Toaster.
The Below is, ‘Fake’ ?  The, ’Truth’?   Or just ‘ignored’ ?
(For the record, I do Not believe in suicide, but believe the  Freedom, to state a Opinion !)

“…In 1987 a law repressing incitation to suicide was passed, after a best-selling book called "Suicide, mode d'emploi" was published in 1982. The bill was first adopted by the Senate in 1983; in 1987, during the debates before the National Assembly, the book was cited by name as a prime example of what was to be banned. This book, written by two anarchists (Claude Guillon and Yves Le Bonniec), contained a historic and theoretical account of suicide, as well as a critical overview of ways to commit suicide. The book could not be rereleased in 1989 because of that law. The book is thus censored de facto, unavailable in all libraries and bookshops in France. It has never been translated into English….”

http://www.artandpopularculture.com/Censorship_in_France

And the: “…In 2016, a television ad which advocated that babies with Down Syndrome shouldn't be aborted solely because of their syndrome ran. It was ruled anti-abortion speech and removed. …”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_France

So, while some may believe, that Disarming, civilian, Citizens, is correct. Others believe, that, ‘Freedom’, is correct.  And which one, 'IS', correct, will be determined, probably 50-100 years from now. And even then, it will be argued, as who, is 'correct' in their opinion, of what was correct !

                      Just to ‘remind’, some.
 When you are persuaded to Give UP a ‘Freedom', in return for ’Security’,
                       you will have  NEITHER.
               Which is Very Well Documented in History !
           And said by well knowen people, a Long Time Ago.


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Ben Franklin once said: "If you give up a freedom, for the sake of security, you will have neither".
Which is More TRUE, today, than yesterday.('06, S-40, Stock) well, mostly .
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Re: Book ...
Reply #19 - 05/14/18 at 10:15:23
 
 I will resend this link to some associates in France, they will not be government employees or people afraid of death or incarceration by responding publically and ones in which I have had no exchange of services or goods.

 I am not sure but I don't think that citizens in France would have used personal firearms to alter the laws made regarding suicide, or to get the book re-published.  Just as I do not expect they would do the same to get commercials re-aired.  Also I do not believe that those laws would have ceased to exist if French citizens had a 2nd Amendment.

 I could be wrong, but to maintain context these have to have a direct nexus to the 2nd Amendment and its use for TV commercials and suicide laws in France.  This means French citizens would be willing to take up arms over the content described.  

 Also I recommend looking up the ALA's list of banned and challenged books in the US, it happens here too.
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Re: Book ...
Reply #20 - 05/14/18 at 11:59:48
 
ALA?
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The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.- Edmund Burke.
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Re: Book ...
Reply #21 - 05/14/18 at 13:11:50
 
Eegore wrote on 05/14/18 at 10:15:23:
 I will resend this link to some associates in France, they will not be government employees or people afraid of death or incarceration by responding publically and ones in which I have had no exchange of services or goods. I am not sure but I don't think that citizens in France would have used personal firearms to alter the laws made regarding suicide, or to get the book re-published.  Just as I do not expect they would do the same to get commercials re-aired.  Also I do not believe that those laws would have ceased to exist if French citizens had a 2nd Amendment. I could be wrong, but to maintain context these have to have a direct nexus to the 2nd Amendment and its use for TV commercials and suicide laws in France.  This means French citizens would be willing to take up arms over the content described.  Also I recommend looking up the ALA's list of banned and challenged books in the US, it happens here too.

JOG,   ALA = American Library Association, Wasn’t sure, had to look it up myself,

Did so, went to their sight:
http://www.ala.org/advocacy/bbooks/frequentlychallengedbooks/classics
And found this, about banned books.
“…attempts by individuals and groups to have books removed from libraries shelves and from classrooms….”
    (Oh what a List, LOLOLOLOLOLOL)
So, the, ‘Attempt’ to BAN a book  (or limit  Free Speech), has been, ‘attempted’,
by Liberians, school boards, teachers, who are imposing their, Personal Opinions, on other people.
Who do NOT  want to allow other people to have a different source of information.
            (Like 80% of today's Media)
And, when concerned people objected, the, ‘Ban’, (by that ‘Person’) is overturned.   
It is, a, ‘BAN, by one person, or a ‘Board’, etc.
It is Not a, ‘BAN’, from the Federal Government.
               (In THIS, Country)

 http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1526047608
So the school, that suspended 2 students, for 5 days, for posting a photo of them with a gun at a range.
Because: “…wording in the district's policy that prohibited students from having weapons for any reason on or off school grounds. Penalties included an evaluation by the Child Study Team and a recommendation that a student be suspended from school for at least one year…”
The photos do NOT, show what really happened, when the Parents took to giving their opinion to the school board.
A  Letter, did ! “…The videos of Monday's school board meeting showed just three of the 25-plus people who spoke that made valuable points. What you don’t see in the video is what Board of Education members were doing the entire time. They were on their phones, not paying attention to the issue at hand….”

So now, that, ‘board’, which is the, ‘government’, in that case.
Which one of the Countries you named, do you believe, would have,
IMMEDIATELY done, (After they were severely criticized by the Parents)
     Stop the Suspension ?
  Remove the, ‘black’ mark from the student’s record ?
Re-wright the, ‘rule’,  about what a student  does when NOT a  Student/in class/On School grounds ?

I don’t believe any of them would, Simply because,
                  They Don’t HAVE TO !

Let’s go right back to the beginning.

A Person has a opinion, their should be no 2nd.
Using the 1st, as the, (Protected), vechiel to give that opinion,
        that their should be no 2nd.

The fact that, someone from another country, believes that their, ‘freedom of press’, is the Same as here.
Is their opinion.

Put a frog in a pan of hot water, it jumps right out.
Put a Frog in a pan of cold water,
then S L O L E Y raise the heat.
  What happens ?

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Ben Franklin once said: "If you give up a freedom, for the sake of security, you will have neither".
Which is More TRUE, today, than yesterday.('06, S-40, Stock) well, mostly .
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Re: Book ...
Reply #22 - 05/14/18 at 13:20:55
 
Trump is banning science... one word at a time... Roll Eyes

Quote:
" US Department of Agriculture – guardians of the planet’s richest farmlands – has decided to combat the threat of global warming by forbidding the use of the words.

Under guidance from the agency’s director of soil health, Bianca Moebius-Clune, a list of phrases to be avoided includes “climate change” and “climate change adaptation”, to be replaced by “weather extremes” and “resilience to weather extremes”.
Trump is deleting climate change, one site at a time

Also blacklisted is the scary locution “reduce greenhouse gases” – and here, the agency’s linguists have done an even better job of camouflage: the new and approved term is “increase nutrient use efficiency”.

The effectiveness of this approach – based on the well-known principle that what you can’t say won’t hurt you – has previously been tested at the state level, making use of the “policy laboratories” provided by America’s federalist system.
"


Quote:
"On Friday, the Washington Post broke the news (and other outlets confirmed) that CDC officials were prevented from referring to seven words when putting together the agency’s budget: vulnerable, entitlement, diversity, transgender, fetus, evidence-based, and science-based.


Quote:
"Trump administration charges forward with its war on science by canceling a "crucial" carbon monitoring system at NASA, scientists and climate experts are sounding alarms over atmospheric concentrations of carbon dioxide (CO2) that just surpassed a "troubling" threshold for the first time in human history. "
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Re: Book ...
Reply #23 - 05/14/18 at 14:39:00
 
Serowbot wrote on 05/14/18 at 13:20:55:
Trump is banning science... one word at a time...

That would be, YOUR,  Opinion !
 (Or was that a, ’SPIN” of a headline)

“…a list of phrases to be avoided …”

Perhaps one need to read that part again.
and concentrate on the word, ‘avoided’.
 (Just a note,  ‘avoided’, does not = ‘Banned’’)

"... and here, the agency’s linguists have done an even better job of camouflage:  …”
 OH just like, ’Sensible Gun Control needs to be in-acted’,  when,  ‘BAN  Guns’, is what it means ?

“… war on science …”

Yep, Spin, Clickbait, and plain old LIES.  (the word, ‘WAR’)

Amazing, if this country is SO  Bad, and other countries have a Better, ‘Freedom of Speech’,  WITHOUT, any kind of 2nd.
    (or so you have been told)
Why hasn’t Trump, made a, executive order, saying the word/s, … … … …   are  BANNED ?

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Ben Franklin once said: "If you give up a freedom, for the sake of security, you will have neither".
Which is More TRUE, today, than yesterday.('06, S-40, Stock) well, mostly .
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Re: Book ...
Reply #24 - 05/14/18 at 15:04:27
 

 The ALA list does not have government listed books as it is no part of their research and US controls pretty much stop at child pornography.  Our banning or limitation comes from us, not the government  that so many people seem to think is doing it.  

 Right it is their opinion regarding the assessment that our 2nd Amendment is not protecting our Freedom of Speech/Assembly at this time, and mine is influenced by their and my observations.

 I do not think our Freedom of Press/Assembly is currently protected by our 2nd Amendment.
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Re: Book ...
Reply #25 - 05/14/18 at 15:48:07
 
Eegore wrote on 05/14/18 at 15:04:27:
"... I do not think our Freedom of Press/Assembly is currently protected by our 2nd Amendment.  

   OK then, now we know where you stand.
        (Ya could have saved a lot of typing)
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Ben Franklin once said: "If you give up a freedom, for the sake of security, you will have neither".
Which is More TRUE, today, than yesterday.('06, S-40, Stock) well, mostly .
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Re: Book ...
Reply #26 - 05/14/18 at 16:13:58
 
MnSpring wrote on 05/14/18 at 15:48:07:
        (Ya could have saved a lot of typing)

We all could.. Grin
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Eegore
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Re: Book ...
Reply #27 - 05/14/18 at 17:59:37
 
MnSpring wrote on 05/14/18 at 15:48:07:
Eegore wrote on 05/14/18 at 15:04:27:
"... I do not think our Freedom of Press/Assembly is currently protected by our 2nd Amendment.  

   OK then, now we know where you stand.
        (Ya could have saved a lot of typing)



 I thought I made it clear in my first post (number 7 in this thread)  that was contested:

" I feel we would still have freedom of press simply because there is so much money in modern media.  Second Amendment as far as I can tell has nothing to do with it now. "
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Re: Book ...
Reply #28 - 05/15/18 at 10:04:23
 
Eegore wrote on 05/14/18 at 17:59:37:
        (Full text in post above, #27)
"... I do not think our Freedom of Press/Assembly
is currently protected by our 2nd Amendment.   ..."

Yep, (Actually it was post 6), you, ‘KINNA’  skirted around it.
In post 24, you came out and said it.
  (Although now, (out of the blue), adding the word, ‘Assembly’)

In post 6, you said, ’now’.  
That word, coupled with, ’as far as I can tell’, suggests that at one time, you believed the 2nd, Did protect the first.
But you don’t believe that now.

So, that is your belief. Fine.  
           Just as I have mine.
Their are 2 others here, that routinely,
 (to put this electronic forum into real life words)
        “ Say one thing, yet do another”

Again back to the point.
 Totally Ironic, (and total Hypocrisy),
that a person uses the,
 Protection of  the 1st.,  
To try and eliminate, the 2nd.
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Ben Franklin once said: "If you give up a freedom, for the sake of security, you will have neither".
Which is More TRUE, today, than yesterday.('06, S-40, Stock) well, mostly .
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Re: Book ...
Reply #29 - 05/15/18 at 10:31:38
 
I fail to see any hypocrisy....  the two amendments are not joined at the hip.
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