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As I was saying (Read 174 times)
Eegore
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Re: As I was saying
Reply #30 - 06/05/18 at 14:54:47
 
"(to  quote a now famous phrase)
 ‘What Does It Matter ?”

 I see the statement saying "religion" but not "Christians" so is the issue specific to that one religion or is it to religion as a whole?
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Re: As I was saying
Reply #31 - 06/05/18 at 15:00:35
 
Serowbot wrote on 06/04/18 at 15:20:21:
SCOTUS is on the wrong side of history with this one.
In the 60's this baker would be refusing a wedding cake to a mixed race couple....

We could suppose anything, but it wasn't.
Very limited win.
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WebsterMark
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Re: As I was saying
Reply #32 - 06/05/18 at 15:13:32
 
Eegore wrote on 06/05/18 at 14:54:47:
"(to  quote a now famous phrase)
 ‘What Does It Matter ?”

 I see the statement saying "religion" but not "Christians" so is the issue specific to that one religion or is it to religion as a whole?


The context of the case clearly implies Christianity. This was not a baker claiming to be a non-practicing Jewish man. Nor a Buddist. This was a man who said being forced to do this was an affront to his Christian beliefs. If the baker was a Muslim and the Colorado commission acted the same way (which of course they wouldn't) then the court should have ruled the exact same way.
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Eegore
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Re: As I was saying
Reply #33 - 06/05/18 at 15:16:26
 
 How do you come to the conclusion that if he was Muslim that they wouldn't have come to the same decision?  I'm sure they would have used other words, but anti-religion to me seems they would have ruled the same, just ignoring the Muslim as well.

 Are there Muslim business owners that have similar cases in Colorado that could be looked at?
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Re: As I was saying
Reply #34 - 06/07/18 at 14:30:45
 
WebsterMark wrote on 06/05/18 at 11:30:30:
People have a right to NOT DO what they can't do in good conscience.

Not in commerce they don't. There is a narrow road where they can't be forced, but its rare and narrow.

Forcing a devote Christian baker against his will to use his creative, artistic talents to bake a wedding cake for a lesbian couple which is against his historical religion is one such narrow path.

Refusing to serve a black man is not.


okay, I haven't been following this thread, as I just don't care much, to me a business, or corporation can't have a religion, aka, businesses and corporations aren't persons, and if they are open to the public, then public accommodation laws are in effect and the business has a legal responsibility to follow them, if they can't, in good conscious, then they shouldn't open a business open to the public, if they can be private clubs or whatever, like where I live, there are bars that only serve alcohol, no food, but they aren't allowed by law, but they are private clubs so you have to join a "club" to drink there, that way they can do what they want.  

anyway, back to Web's post here.

in the past, it was in his historical religion to not consider black people people, that they were unworthy and darned just because they were black.

so, did the words in the bible change, or did culture and education change how the words were interpreted (in either the past or the present)

imo, this baker, and others, are using religion as a scapegoat to unburden themselves of any responsibility of their own bigotry.

Jesus SERVED sinners, why can't this baker?
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justin_o_guy2
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Re: As I was saying
Reply #35 - 06/07/18 at 16:28:36
 
The Jew must bake a cake with the swastika on it for the Nazis.
The black must contract with the kkk.

The court went right to acknowledge the rights to NOT participate.
The mistake was to not include inherent property rights. We OWN ourselves.
Serving the public is a given.
Being ASKED to Contract with someone to
Create something that IS part of a
Ceremony that Honors the UNNATURAL isn't RIGHT.
Argue with me on that point.
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The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.- Edmund Burke.
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Eegore
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Re: As I was saying
Reply #36 - 06/08/18 at 05:40:28
 
"Ceremony that Honors the UNNATURAL isn't RIGHT"


 There are tons of people that wouldn't agree with that statement alone.  That in itself would be a 5 page thread.  There's a lot of people, straight religious people that don't think homosexuality is unnatural.  Being a lower percentage doesn't automatically make something "unnatural."  The "ceremony" means absolutely nothing to many people.  There's a lot to argue there.

 There's even more like me that don't care, and don't see why he didn't just take the money and donate it to his church.
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verslagen1
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Re: As I was saying
Reply #37 - 06/08/18 at 07:39:52
 
What if the baker said "I contract all these types of cakes to the baker across the street and mark them up 20%" would you intern say "no thanks" and walk across the street?
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justin_o_guy2
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Re: As I was saying
Reply #38 - 06/08/18 at 07:45:12
 
Being a lower percentage doesn't automatically make something "unnatural

Not many children are the result of homo sex, is there?

Sex, in nature
Is
Reproductive.

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The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.- Edmund Burke.
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Re: As I was saying
Reply #39 - 06/08/18 at 08:54:53
 
without getting into a gay debate, there are long term, historical practices and beliefs by organizations that, in my mind anyway, are valid and justifiable reasons to not be forced to use creative talents.

Like I said, I don't think a waiter can refuse service to a gay couple, but a baker can refuse to use his creative services for a gay marriage. He can demonstrate a long standing tradition that is behavioral based. Can the KKK demonstrate a long standing tradition against blacks? Yes, but its not behavioral based so I don't believe they have a valid argument. We've allowed Native Americans to smoke material that for you and I would be illegal because they were able to demonstrate a historical precedent.

Now, can a fundamentalist Muslim refuse to use his creative ability to make a cake for a Jewish couple? I would have to say yes, he can refuse.
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justin_o_guy2
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Re: As I was saying
Reply #40 - 06/08/18 at 10:02:05
 
Fine by me
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The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.- Edmund Burke.
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