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Beefing up the Clutch (Read 1561 times)
Armen
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Re: Beefing up the Clutch
Reply #120 - 02/04/22 at 17:23:50
 
Cool.
How much?
Paypal OK?
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TheSneeze
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Re: Beefing up the Clutch
Reply #121 - 02/04/22 at 17:34:36
 
$20 plus shipping.  I am not starting to ship any parts until the strength testing is complete and results are posted.  You know, full transparency...
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Every twenty minute job is a stripped thread away from being a three day ordeal.

'87 LS650h Savage Street Tracker (destroyed by fire)
'86 LS650g Savage (parts bike)
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Armen
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Re: Beefing up the Clutch
Reply #122 - 02/04/22 at 17:43:17
 
Thanks
No rush
Just keep us in the loop
Thanks for all your hard work
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verslagen1
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Re: Beefing up the Clutch
Reply #123 - 02/04/22 at 19:12:19
 
I would mount the shaft between 2 vices clamping the shaft as close to the pawl as possible on each side and apply a force with a 1/4" pin to the dimple.

This would be as close to the application as possible.
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TheSneeze
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Re: Beefing up the Clutch
Reply #124 - 02/04/22 at 19:51:01
 
I am all ears on how you would measure the force being applied that way.  Mechanically I understand where you are coming from, completely.  From a practical set up stand point, how? Do you mean two vice jaws (one vice)? What instrument(s) would you use to measure the applied force?  The failure mode of the part is the corners of the flats on the shaft are applying outward force on the double D hole, trying to push it apart from the inside.  The rotation of the shaft in the double D hole.  This is the force I was trying to duplicate.  Not by rotating the shaft, but by rotating the part.  Since I am not willing to go out and purchase any special fixtures or measuring tools for this, using a torque wrench (which I have) will need to suffice.  I could cut the shaft short enough to still put the socket over the shaft and pawl.  But testing that way would eliminate any allowable twist by the length of the shaft.  Leaving the shaft full length and pinching the flats of the shaft in a vice eliminates my only method of measuring the force applied, unfortunately.
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Every twenty minute job is a stripped thread away from being a three day ordeal.

'87 LS650h Savage Street Tracker (destroyed by fire)
'86 LS650g Savage (parts bike)
'81 Kawasaki KZ750e ELR tribut
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Dave
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Re: Beefing up the Clutch
Reply #125 - 02/05/22 at 04:55:00
 
My thought on a test rig would be a flat plate with two blocks attached to emulate the clutch cover.....holes would be drilled in the blocks to do the function of shaft pivot.  A bolt would be tapped into the plate to work as the clutch push rod.....the bolt could be screwed in/out so the length could be adjusted to get the cam properly located.

The shaft could either be made from rod with the flats cut in and a nut welded to the end so your torque wrench could be used - or the stock shaft with some form of adapter made that would fit your torque wrench and slip over the arm of the clutch rod.

I could try to build something today and/or tomorrow and it won't be shipped until Monday......you likely wouldn't get it until the end of next week.

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TheSneeze
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Re: Beefing up the Clutch
Reply #126 - 02/05/22 at 07:27:40
 
Very good ideas, Dave.  Since my clutch arm actually started to twist at the weld, I wanted to try and eliminate that weak point to prove the pawl strength.  Cutting the shaft short enough to hold the flats in a vice and still fit the socket over the pawl would certainly test the pawl strength, but would eliminate any inherent twist in the shaft itself.  Since the weld on my clutch lever has already moved, and I won't weld over chrome plating (bad, unhealthy fumes), I am willing to cut the lever off of mine.  I could leave as much of the length intact as to not leave any twist out of the equation.  My clutch lever will no longer be used on a bike.
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Every twenty minute job is a stripped thread away from being a three day ordeal.

'87 LS650h Savage Street Tracker (destroyed by fire)
'86 LS650g Savage (parts bike)
'81 Kawasaki KZ750e ELR tribut
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verslagen1
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Re: Beefing up the Clutch
Reply #127 - 02/05/22 at 07:45:55
 
TheSneeze wrote on 02/04/22 at 19:51:01:
I am all ears on how you would measure the force being applied that way.  Mechanically I understand where you are coming from, completely.  From a practical set up stand point, how? Do you mean two vice jaws (one vice)? What instrument(s) would you use to measure the applied force?  The failure mode of the part is the corners of the flats on the shaft are applying outward force on the double D hole, trying to push it apart from the inside.  The rotation of the shaft in the double D hole.  This is the force I was trying to duplicate.  Not by rotating the shaft, but by rotating the part.  Since I am not willing to go out and purchase any special fixtures or measuring tools for this, using a torque wrench (which I have) will need to suffice.  I could cut the shaft short enough to still put the socket over the shaft and pawl.  But testing that way would eliminate any allowable twist by the length of the shaft.  Leaving the shaft full length and pinching the flats of the shaft in a vice eliminates my only method of measuring the force applied, unfortunately.

I'll try to set something up later today to show what I mean.

Your test applies a torque to the pawl, but this only tests the interface load between the shaft and pawl but lacks the shear load applied by the throw out rod itself.

Putting the shaft in 2 separate vices for support and clamping hard on the shaft lessons the load on the shaft by putting it into a double shear configuration which is a optimum.

Applying a downward load on the pawl at the throw out rod dimple fully replicates the application.  The one thing I've learned in my many years of product development is test as it is used or you'll be surprised when it fails.
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verslagen1
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Re: Beefing up the Clutch
Reply #128 - 02/07/22 at 10:19:06
 
Here's a quick set up of the test.

Sorry didn't have a clutch pawl handy and never mind the support underneath.
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clutch_pawl_test.png
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TheSneeze
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Re: Beefing up the Clutch
Reply #129 - 02/07/22 at 12:16:03
 
I only have one vice.  The more I think about this, what I am trying to show is the strength difference between the stock pawl and the AR500 pawl.  As long as twisting force is applied to the double D hole in the pawl, and both are subjected to the same force, it will show the difference in material strength.  I am not trying to prove the geometry or strength of the entire mechanism.  Just the pawl.  Even if the test is not the exact force applied by the stock linkage, it will show the difference in material strength.
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Every twenty minute job is a stripped thread away from being a three day ordeal.

'87 LS650h Savage Street Tracker (destroyed by fire)
'86 LS650g Savage (parts bike)
'81 Kawasaki KZ750e ELR tribut
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justin_o_guy2
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Re: Beefing up the Clutch
Reply #130 - 02/07/22 at 16:17:22
 
What are you testing For?
What are you expecting to see? Wear ? Failure?
Testing is a reasonable idea when change has been made and the results could be really disappointing, maybe costly . By ditching the Sintered metal and going with a hard steel, unless common sense has entered backwards world, I would Expect to see no problems for many cycles of clutch lever. And the Crumble, Fail simply can't happen.

Test your metal before and after the work.. A spring loaded center punch, see what it does before and after the work.
Unless you can See a problem, I don't understand not installing it.
It might be easier to heat treat them than test to see if you need to.


I just wouldn't let the hassle, time, cost,of designing a test bed get in the way.
The OEM part is a known, rare,but known problem that absolutely downs the bike ,wherever it breaks.
I'd hit it with the center punch before and after the cutting and whatever heat you hit it with. I'm confused about the shaft twisting. Might have read that wrong..
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badwolf
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Re: Beefing up the Clutch
Reply #131 - 02/07/22 at 16:37:15
 
I would think ar500 steel will be way stronger than stock.
What I would worry about is the pushrod wearing against it. I had to make a pushrod for mine when I installed a extra steel plate and took 2 tries to harden it enough. If the rod or pawl wear your clutch will lose disingaugement movement. (BAD)
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justin_o_guy2
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Re: Beefing up the Clutch
Reply #132 - 02/07/22 at 17:35:35
 
I wonder how a ball bearing stuck on the rod would hold up..

Metal polish and a drill and the rod and throwout are lapped to fit.
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Dave
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Re: Beefing up the Clutch
Reply #133 - 02/07/22 at 18:10:55
 
justin_o_guy2 wrote on 02/07/22 at 17:35:35:
I wonder how a ball bearing stuck on the rod would hold up..


Back in the 70's when Japanese bikes used to have the clutch push rod go from the left side of the bike and push all the way across the bike though the center of the transmission input shaft - it was common that the shaft had a left and right half and a steel ball in the center.

It would be possible to do that on the Savage - but I really don't know how much wear to expect when the clutch push rod has a ball bearing built in already.  Anytime you pull the clutch lever and apply pressure the bearing will likely turn....and the entire mess will be getting a good amount of oil spray when the engine is running.
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badwolf
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Re: Beefing up the Clutch
Reply #134 - 02/07/22 at 18:36:43
 
The first pushrod I made wasn't hardened enough and mushroomed over, shortning it.
Dave, your a engineer, is that stock pawl made from that stuff cause it's hard and will standup to the wear from the pushrod?
I have never had any experence with that stuff, that I knew of.
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