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Beefing up the Clutch (Read 1561 times)
verslagen1
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Re: Beefing up the Clutch
Reply #90 - 01/27/22 at 22:21:59
 
TheSneeze wrote on 01/27/22 at 22:02:00:
Justin, what is your solution to the part breaking?  The approach is "just silly"?  Not sure where your comments are coming from.  Sintered metal is proven to be inconsistent in strength.  Making the part from a stronger material is definitely worth proving the concept.  Have you had a metallurgist back your claims?  Open to discussion on this as long as it's kept friendly.


It's a known fact that billet parts are stronger than sintered parts.
And these will be well fitted parts to boot.
So maybe what JOG is trying to say, why test it?

I would say if you do test, stop at 150 to 200% stronger.
Monitor the amount of twist in the shaft too.

Where I used to work, we waterjet a lot of parts and it would leave a rough surface prone to cracking.
Laser cut was a big no no, and you had to remove the haz of the cut.
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Re: Beefing up the Clutch
Reply #91 - 01/27/22 at 22:27:45
 
This type of laser cutting is fiber.  Look into it before panning it.  The cut width is .002 - .003".  At my shop we were cutting with CO2.  Much bigger cut width, much more heat.  The fiber laser has no HAZ.  The part can be picked up right after cutting and it is luke warm to the touch.  If the tolerances can be held, and the part is proven to be stronger, why it is it "just not worth the cost of proving it"?  We are just trying to solve a design problem.
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Re: Beefing up the Clutch
Reply #92 - 01/27/22 at 22:48:32
 
TheSneeze wrote on 01/27/22 at 22:27:45:
 If the tolerances can be held, and the part is proven to be stronger, why it is it "just not worth the cost of proving it"?  We are just trying to solve a design problem.

It's not a design problem, it's a mfg problem... dam bean counters.
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Re: Beefing up the Clutch
Reply #93 - 01/28/22 at 04:24:00
 
TheSneeze wrote on 01/27/22 at 22:07:11:
For the record - I am not trying to go into business on this, nor am I trying to make a large profit.


Several of us have done this a time or two.....none of us are getting rich, and it is more a labor of love.  Lancer provides performance parts, Verslagen makes tensioner upgrades, Arman and I have done some machining.....we likely make $10 an hour for our time.

Thanks for taking on the clutch cam issue.

And I agree......testing the original part to failure - followed by testing the new part to prove it is significantly stronger is fine.  I don't believe it is necessary to test a new part to failure if the applied force is significantly improved.  It is likely that a 50% improvement in strength is probably adequate.  If we install stronger springs they won't be a lot stronger - as your prediction of breaking other parts will likely prove true.  I think the next weak link is probably that outer piece that holds the center bearing and pushes on the 4 springs....as we just machined part of it away to reduce the spring preload (although we might not have to machine that away if the cam is stronger).
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Re: Beefing up the Clutch
Reply #94 - 01/29/22 at 14:02:12
 
Wow!  AR500 steel, yield 215 ksi, tensile 240 ksi, RC 50 - 54.  That sounds like some good stuff.

Sneezy, count me in for 3 copies of that item.  Possibly willing to go for 5 if you don't meet the threshold.

I agree, no need to test to failure.  Taking it to 150% of the original item failure point seems adequate to me.  For info purposes, the force required to take the DR springs to 23mm (max anticipated travel) is 356 lbs.  I suspect the DR springs are probably the stiffest any of us would try to use.  The stock springs exert about 316 lbs at 23mm.
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Re: Beefing up the Clutch
Reply #95 - 01/29/22 at 14:25:24
 
We still need a few more takers to hit the threshold for a manufacturing run.   Four or five more and I will get moving on this.

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Re: Beefing up the Clutch
Reply #96 - 01/30/22 at 08:28:56
 
Sneeze, I'm in for 2.
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Re: Beefing up the Clutch
Reply #97 - 01/31/22 at 07:32:48
 
I am headed off to the machine shop today to pull the trigger on a run of these AR500 clutch actuator pawls.  I will make sure they know the critical features are the distance from the cup to the shaft centerline, the depth of the cup, and the flat to flat distance on the double D hole.  I am looking forward to seeing how these turn out.  Of course, I will post detailed pictures of them when I receive them prior to shipping.  Thanks go out to all the guys willing to join me in this experiment!  Here's to finding the next weakest link!  Cheers!
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Re: Beefing up the Clutch
Reply #98 - 01/31/22 at 10:38:15
 
Sneeze, I didn't think you would get this started so fast.  Nice job.  Hope this comment isn't too late.  Please make sure the machinist maintains these two critical fillets.  There must not be a sharp corner in the areas circled in red.

Thanks,  Mike
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Re: Beefing up the Clutch
Reply #99 - 01/31/22 at 11:25:54
 
The part will retain the same profile as the OEM part.  We are tightening up the tolerance and clearance of both the flat-to-flat dimension and the diameter of the double D.  There was as much as .012" of clearance on some of these features.  Crazy.  No wonder there are wear marks on the edges of the flats on the shaft.

One change is necessary.  We are cutting these from .25" thick AR500, and they will be fuse welded together using TIG.  The parts will still be ground to the OEM thickness. He does not have any .500" thick AR500, and would need to buy an entire sheet to get it.  This will not detract from the strength of the part as there are no forces being applied to try and separate the halves.  Fuse welding will eliminate any "proud" filet that could reduce clearance to the case.  If this approach makes anyone leery, speak up now.  I will post pictures of the finished parts prior to shipping so everyone can see what they are getting.  The strength increase should be huge with this material, so I looked at the two piece approach as a moot point.
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Re: Beefing up the Clutch
Reply #100 - 01/31/22 at 11:33:28
 
DragBikeMike wrote on 01/31/22 at 10:38:15:
Sneeze, I didn't think you would get this started so fast.  Nice job.  Hope this comment isn't too late.  Please make sure the machinist maintains these two critical fillets.  There must not be a sharp corner in the areas circled in red.

Thanks,  Mike


That would introduce some stress risers that would cause a quick failure!  The parts will maintain the stock profile.  I told him there are four critical features:

1) Two double D features - diameter and flat-to-flat
2) depth of the cup feature
3) distance of the cup feature to the double D centerline
4) Those two radii you pointed out.

I am looking forward to seeing these and how they turn out!
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Re: Beefing up the Clutch
Reply #101 - 01/31/22 at 12:10:01
 
Won’t welding two 1/4” pieces together place the centerline of the cup right on the parting line?

The AR500 is quenched & tempered.  What happens to the mechanical properties once you weld it?

The welding doesn’t sound good.
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Re: Beefing up the Clutch
Reply #102 - 01/31/22 at 12:41:06
 
I will have these concerns addressed prior to cutting any metal.  Stay tuned.
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Re: Beefing up the Clutch
Reply #103 - 01/31/22 at 12:53:15
 
Just got off the phone with him.  After voicing those concerns, he actually found a smaller chunk of .500" thick from a different supplier and won't need to procure a whole sheet.  So we are back to one piece, no welding.  I think he was leaning toward the two piece method as they cut .25" thick every day, and didn't have any .500" in stock.  Sorry about the hiccup.  
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justin_o_guy2
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Re: Beefing up the Clutch
Reply #104 - 02/01/22 at 16:29:57
 
known fact that billet parts are stronger than sintered parts.
And these will be well fitted parts to boot.
So maybe what JOG is trying to say, why test it?

Yep,seems silly. I'd eyeball the new part and if it needs smoothed or something, whoop the Dremel out and slick it up.

I could see myself wanting one of those. I didn't see a price.
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