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Oil System Evaluation & Upgrade (Read 752 times)
DragBikeMike
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Re: Oil System Evaluation & Upgrade
Reply #105 - 12/09/23 at 19:02:04
 
Well look at you.  Nice.  Very nice indeed.
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DragBikeMike
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Re: Oil System Evaluation & Upgrade
Reply #106 - 07/09/24 at 00:49:28
 
On this lube oil system project, I had initially intended to do a complete tear down at 10,000 miles, but it was running so well I decided to keep going.  Then in November of 2023 I did an endoscope inspection at 14,000 miles; all was good.  It was running great, so I kept going.  In May of 2024 I had logged 20,000 miles.  It was still running great, but it seemed prudent to take a look.  It was time to tear it down and get my eyeballs on the parts in question.

Up to this point, I had been doing regular services at 3500-mile intervals.  I was not finding any chips on the magnetic drain plug.  Each time I did an oil change, I pulled the clutch cover and did an endoscope inspection of the gears.  No pitting was observed.

The engine was still making great power.  The compression was down a bit (from about 220 to 200), but the motor was still plenty healthy.  To refresh your memory, these oil system mods were done on my Big Bore 4-Speed engine.  It used a 97mm Pop-Top Wiseco in a shortened cylinder; compression ratio was 10.8:1.  The cylinder head was ported with 34mm intakes, 1.79” exhaust port, and a 55cc combustion chamber.  The cam was the trusty DR650.  Breathing chores were handled by a PWK40, a Mac Header, and a HiFlow Muffler.  It was makin good power.  More than enough to test the gears and main bearings.

I’m pretty sure the reduction in compression was related to my compression gage.  It simply ran too good to have lost that much compression.  If anything, it felt like it made more power than when I started.  The gage didn’t seem to hold pressure.  The needle would swing way up, but then drop off quickly.  

I think this might have something to do with the reduced compression readings.  Don’t know why it took me so long to notice this.  Obviously, a new gage is in order.
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DragBikeMike
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Re: Oil System Evaluation & Upgrade
Reply #107 - 07/09/24 at 00:50:31
 
I needed to get a good look at the transmission gears.  Although the endoscope inspections had been good, I felt it would be much better to do a visual inspection through the opening in the case.  That way, I could be 100% positive that no pits were developing in the gear teeth.  With the cylinder removed, I had good visual access to the input gears.  The gears looked great.

The magnetic drain plug was better than ever.  Over the entire 20,000-mile test, it never picked up even a single chip.  I was confident that no main bearing fretting was taking place.

So, the high-speed pump and gear spray combined with the beefier 4-speed gear set seems to have solved the gear tooth pitting issue, and the oil holes in the cam lobes seem to have solved the main bearing fretting issue.  I think 20,000 miles is more than enough to confirm that those problems are behind us.
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Re: Oil System Evaluation & Upgrade
Reply #108 - 07/09/24 at 00:51:59
 
Like all things HotRod, there’s always a catch.  Since it was all torn apart, I had to take a look at the other stuff.  I noticed several things that are concerning.  These issues don’t seem to be related to lubrication, so I will not elaborate in this post.  I’m just going to bring them to your attention.  I will do additional posts to discuss each problem.

The 97mm pop-top piston had an unusual dull grey area just above the top ring.  This dull grey area was only on the intake side of the piston.  Closer examination revealed that the small grooves machined into the outside diameter of the piston had been eroded.  These grooves are referred to as “detonation suppression bands”.  Further research revealed that this is a typical result of detonation.  If any of you have observed this condition (I refer to it as “sand blasted”) please share your experience.
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DragBikeMike
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Re: Oil System Evaluation & Upgrade
Reply #109 - 07/09/24 at 00:52:43
 
The cylinder head had a circumferential groove eroded into the quench area on the intake side.  It was perfectly aligned with the circumference of the cylinder bore.  Again, if any of you have prior experience with this condition please share.
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Re: Oil System Evaluation & Upgrade
Reply #110 - 07/09/24 at 00:53:28
 
The exhaust valves had significant linear indications around the stems.  These indications, when viewed at 5X, looked like the beginnings of a crack.  The valves appeared to be on the verge of failure, so I replaced them.  I don’t think this is related to lube oil, but I thought it would be important to bring to your attention.  I will elaborate in another post.  For now, I suggest that if you have the exhaust valves out, take a good look in this area.  Use at least 5X magnification and make sure none of this stuff is goin on.
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Michael Moore
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Re: Oil System Evaluation & Upgrade
Reply #111 - 07/09/24 at 09:54:27
 
Mike, I think the erosion on the piston and the slight groove on the head have the same cause since they are both in the same area.

I'd expect detonation to not be localized like that, but instead taking place all around the edge of the chamber.  But there might be some very slight differences in the piston/chamber that aren't readily visible that caused the detonation to be limited to those areas.  Maybe detonation starts there but is extinguished before it travels to the rest of the bore?
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Re: Oil System Evaluation & Upgrade
Reply #112 - 07/09/24 at 12:49:18
 
I'm no expert, but when droplets of gasoline are deposited on the cylinder wall, they are collected in the space above the upper piston ring.
This can cause corrosion above the piston ring and in the squis area of ​​the head, just like you show.
A squis that is too small increases this effect because the gasoline evaporates more poorly during compression.

It doesn't have much to do with the compression ratio.

This effect can be caused by the mist from the carburetor being incorrect.
You may have an optimal mixture adjustment, but the mist may have too large droplets.

Also the valve seats of the inlet valve can be too fluid in shape, which prevents further atomization. They must always have sharp corners for both a 3 corner and a 5 corner valve job.

The exhaust valve seats can, be rounded.
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Re: Oil System Evaluation & Upgrade
Reply #113 - 07/12/24 at 00:30:58
 
Michael Moore, thanks for your comment.  I also was surprised that the damage is confined to the intake side.  I assumed that would be the cooler area and less prone to detonation.  But I guess detonation must occur where the fuel is, and fuel certainly will be on the intake side.  The ignition source will be the rapid rise in pressure, and that pressure will be uniform throughout the combustion chamber.  I was able to find some YouTube vids of a Ducati that had almost exactly the same condition as mine.  I have no idea if the fellow that made the vid is an authority, but what he said made sense.

Zevengerie, I am confident that this is detonation rather than corrosion.  The ring land is deformed across the back side of the piston.  You make a good point about fuel droplets and fuel hiding out in the crevice above the top ring.  Smokey Yunik recommended reducing that crevice as much as possible without bringing the ring too close to the top of the piston.  He felt that the fuel trapped in the crevice could be good for something on the order of 5% more power.  Otherwise, it's simply wasted.  I may be aggravating the condition with my port configuration.  I increased the short side radius to improve flow on the bottom of the port.  That in turn results in more charge being directed at the area in question.  But I don't want to give up on the improved flow, so I'm gonna rely on the tried and proven recommendation to keep the quench as tight as possible, and reduce CR to a more appropriate level (as close to 10.5 as reasonably achievable).

I don't take any extra effort to blend in my seat angles.  I cut them and leave the corners as they are cut.  I do use four angles (75, 60, 46, & 30).  Thankyou for your comments.  They are very helpful and give me more to ponder.  

See my most recent post on this detonation issue.
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Re: Oil System Evaluation & Upgrade
Reply #114 - 07/12/24 at 02:44:44
 
Tanks Mike, I feel compelled to share a little more.
(Life is all about sharing)
I don't want to sound too decisive, like this is how it should be, but you can also think about this:

There is also some power to be gained if you round off the squis edge, so that the flam front can enter the squis and crevice more easily when the piston descends.



Detonation in the squis cleft is a bit strange. If the squis is not larger than 1mm, the piston and head cool the mixture sufficiently so that it does not self-ignite.
When you increase compression you have to look at the squish space and optimize it to prevent detonation.

You cannot make the gap too small because the connecting rod stretches.
And you also have to pay attention to the speed of the gases that are squished because they can blow the plasma away from the spark. Sometimes a tapered squis slit is therefore better.


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DragBikeMike
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Re: Oil System Evaluation & Upgrade
Reply #115 - 07/12/24 at 23:36:03
 
I'm gonna copy and paste these replies into the new post that deals directly with the detonation issue.  That way, this post will be about oil system mods, and the other post will be about detonation problems.

Post where these comments are going:

https://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1720767228
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Re: Oil System Evaluation & Upgrade
Reply #116 - 07/13/24 at 07:36:59
 
What I learned from several builders is that a combustion chamber should not have any sharp edges regardless of compression , of course it becomes more critical as compression ratio goes up. It’s as simple as rounding the sharp edges before assembly. Freshly machined surfaces look so clean & perfect you would never know. I do it on every build.
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DragBikeMike
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Re: Oil System Evaluation & Upgrade
Reply #117 - 03/31/25 at 15:41:22
 
To forge ahead with the lube oil system testing, and to add a little more steam, I reassembled the top end with a new 97mm Wiseco Flat-Top.  I resurfaced the head, dished the piston to bring the volume up to a full 10cc, used a standard-length cylinder with quench set up at .038” (CR 10.6:1), and freshened up the valves.  It pumped a solid 210 psi and provided more than enough steam to torture the transmission and main bearing.  It’s the best motor combination I have assembled.  Very smooth and crisp with gobs of torque.  The piston is much closer to the stock piston weight and the vibration levels are very low.

The odometer was reading 66,522 and I had a fresh top end.  Who knows how many miles were on the bottom end.  It’s all eBay stuff.  But I had put at least 26,000 miles on the gearset and 20K on the Left-Hand Main Bearing.

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Re: Oil System Evaluation & Upgrade
Reply #118 - 03/31/25 at 15:41:59
 
Ever since I started playing with the 97mm pistons, I have had oil leaks and weeps.  I figured out that the leaks were caused by a less than perfectly flat cylinder and cylinder head.  That was waaaaaay back when I did the first 97mm build using a pop-top piston in a standard-length cylinder (CR 9.5:1).  Once the cylinder and cylinder head were resurfaced, all bona fide leaks were resolved.

But the Big Bore beast always had this chronic little seep along the right side.  The copper head gasket seems to be the culprit.  I wouldn’t define the problem as a leak.  I guess you could take the position that any amount of oil accumulation is a leak.  But in my book, if you have something that takes about 1000 miles of operation to result in an accumulation of oil, it’s a weep, not a leak.  Let’s face it, zero accumulation would be better.  It was time to address these little housekeeping issues.
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Re: Oil System Evaluation & Upgrade
Reply #119 - 03/31/25 at 15:42:44
 
I resolved the bearing failure problem using the shotgun approach; get as much oil to that bearing as possible.  I had been running a Hayden KrankVent.  That KrankVent is a check valve installed in the breather line.  It results in a slight vacuum in the crankcase when the engine is running.  That slight vacuum seemed to mitigate many of the little aggravating weeps around places like the oil fill cap, the clutch cover, the timing plug, the alternator cover, the clutch release arm, etc.  That was a nice feature, but I couldn’t be sure that it was not preventing proper drainage from the cylinder head.  I knew that those head drains supply oil to the main bearings, so I removed the KrankVent.   Now that all seemed well with the bearings; it was time to try the KrankVent again.
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