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Carb and choke questions (Read 45 times)
uranusklingon
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Carb and choke questions
06/25/25 at 15:34:29
 
Is the stock carb choke supposed to have 2 levels? I always use mine all the way out until warmed up, but there seems to be a mid-way out point on the choke that makes faster idle. Also, lately the choke has been popping in by itself when riding, is this just normal wear? (Caused bike to stall today at a stoplight). Once warmed up she runs fine without choke, but I am usually too impatient to fully warm up before riding.

Also, I got a Sportster muffler which I haven't installed yet. (won ebay bid for $5!)- Rather than mess with the stock carb and jets, I was thinking of getting a pwk38, and keeping the stock carb and muffler in case i want to go back without messing with anything. Anyone tried a Nibbi PWK38? This is the one I am looking at: https://www.amazon.com/Carburetor-350cc-450cc-Motorcycle-KAWASAKI-SUZUKIApoll...
Think this carb will work?

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Dave
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Re: Carb and choke questions
Reply #1 - 06/26/25 at 03:53:39
 
The choke (enrichment knob) does have 2 levels of engagement.  As the plastic part gets old it does begin to lose it's ability to function.

The stock carb works just fine when cleaned and jetted properly.  It is easy to get the jetting improved.  If you live at lower elevations a #50 or #52.5 pilot jet, a #150 main jet, and replace the white spacer on the needle with 3 washers......Easy Peasy!  (If you live at mountain elevations you may want to reduce the jet sizes to #45 pilot and #145 main).
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uranusklingon
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Re: Carb and choke questions
Reply #2 - Yesterday at 07:02:46
 
Dave wrote on 06/26/25 at 03:53:39:
The choke (enrichment knob) does have 2 levels of engagement.  As the plastic part gets old it does begin to lose it's ability to function.

The stock carb works just fine when cleaned and jetted properly.  It is easy to get the jetting improved.  If you live at lower elevations a #50 or #52.5 pilot jet, a #150 main jet, and replace the white spacer on the needle with 3 washers......Easy Peasy!  (If you live at mountain elevations you may want to reduce the jet sizes to #45 pilot and #145 main).


Thanks Dave.
What is the purpose of the 2 choke levels? Either one seems to work for starting the bike. Am I supposed to be using one or the other, or switching between at some point? Also I forgot to mention, the previous owner apparently rebuilt the stock carb, and all the external screw heads look pretty boogered up - hence another reason I was looking at that carb.
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Axman88
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Re: Carb and choke questions
Reply #3 - Yesterday at 13:02:59
 
Just two positions for the enrichment?  The carb on my "Other" Suzuki single, seems to be positionable in multiple, what I would call "continuously variable" different positions, at least I treat it that way.  What position it starts out in, depends on how cold the weather when I'm starting.  And how it progresses through the "positions" depends on how quickly the engine warms up.

I'll have to look closer at my LS650 when it comes out of storage.

I saw this thread, comparing a few different carbs on a Savage:
http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1585461605

There seems to be a lot of range, one can have success with, from a
Keihin knockoff PWK38 for ~$40,
Mikuni knockoff VM38 for ~$50,
Genuine Keihin PWK38, around $100,
Genuine Mikuni VM38, around $125,
There's also the Mikuni TM, flat slide series, which again can be found as knockoff and genuine article.  These weren't included in the carb shootoff, but are on my radar.

I like the idea of getting rid of the extra complexity and the manifold vacuum reliance of the stock CV type carb, but I'm aware of some potential challenges.
 - The throttle mechanisms for the direct acting carbs are mainly all single cable, while the CVs generally have two cables.
 -  I understand that a lot of carbs come setup for 2 strokes.  Not sure what differences this entails.
 -  Jetting for a lot of "carb in a box" will be generic.  The internals can be remarkably complicated.

For example, I noticed when I had the BSR32 out of my GZ250, between the needle jet, jet needle, pilot, main, starting, and several air jets, there were 7 components to pick correctly, plus needle shim positions and mixture screws to set.  A surprising LOT of things to know, select, and adjust.

I have started making efforts to learn enough to have confidence with a carb swap, but, so far have mainly gained an appreciation for how little I know of what it is possible to know.
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Re: Carb and choke questions
Reply #4 - Yesterday at 13:48:26
 
The advantage of the CV carb is the ability for the carb to keep the engine vacuum stable.  If(when) you crack open the throttle too quickly and the vacuum begins to drop - the vacuum operated slide keeps that in check and opens as the vacuum builds.  The CV carb is likely the best choice for the motorcycle masses of all skill levels.

Carbs that have the slide operated by a cable can react a little bit faster - but they also have the potential to fall on their face if you open the throttle too quickly (the vacuum can drop below what is required to pull the fuel out of the float bowl and into the jets and/or carb throat).  I am sure some of you are familiar with the 'cough" that can happen when the vacuum drops too low while you crack the throttle open from low rpm.  In minor cases it is just a bit of a lag in acceleration as the vacuum drops and the mixture goes lean....then the engine begins to pull strongly again as the vacuum recovers.  The engine is always happiest if you roll the throttle on - rather than just crack it open instantly.

The 2 choke levels are likely far more useful for folks who live and ride in very cold weather (as is the compression release to help get the engine spinning in freezing weather).  Once the bike is started it may be necessary to ride with the choke pulled half way out to get a decent idle until the engine gets fully warmed up.....in really cold weather the engine may never get warm enough to ride with the choke fully off.  We had one forum member who lived in the Pacific Northwest and rode is motorcycle all year long - the ferry he had to ride on to get to work allowed instant access to motorcycles....while the cars often had long a long wait time (his ride was often in the single digit temperatures!).

The stock carb when properly cleaned and jetted runs very well on a stock engine.  There are not any massive power or mpg improvements to be had from switching to an aftermarket carb.

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uranusklingon
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Re: Carb and choke questions
Reply #5 - Today at 14:20:54
 
Dave wrote on Yesterday at 13:48:26:
The advantage of the CV carb is the ability for the carb to keep the engine vacuum stable.  If(when) you crack open the throttle too quickly and the vacuum begins to drop - the vacuum operated slide keeps that in check and opens as the vacuum builds.  The CV carb is likely the best choice for the motorcycle masses of all skill levels.

Carbs that have the slide operated by a cable can react a little bit faster - but they also have the potential to fall on their face if you open the throttle too quickly (the vacuum can drop below what is required to pull the fuel out of the float bowl and into the jets and/or carb throat).  I am sure some of you are familiar with the 'cough" that can happen when the vacuum drops too low while you crack the throttle open from low rpm.  In minor cases it is just a bit of a lag in acceleration as the vacuum drops and the mixture goes lean....then the engine begins to pull strongly again as the vacuum recovers.  The engine is always happiest if you roll the throttle on - rather than just crack it open instantly.

The 2 choke levels are likely far more useful for folks who live and ride in very cold weather (as is the compression release to help get the engine spinning in freezing weather).  Once the bike is started it may be necessary to ride with the choke pulled half way out to get a decent idle until the engine gets fully warmed up.....in really cold weather the engine may never get warm enough to ride with the choke fully off.  We had one forum member who lived in the Pacific Northwest and rode is motorcycle all year long - the ferry he had to ride on to get to work allowed instant access to motorcycles....while the cars often had long a long wait time (his ride was often in the single digit temperatures!).

The stock carb when properly cleaned and jetted runs very well on a stock engine.  There are not any massive power or mpg improvements to be had from switching to an aftermarket carb.


Dave,
Thanks for all the input. One of the first things I did was the raptor petcock, and plugged the vacuum line. Does this eliminate the vacuum advantage?
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Re: Carb and choke questions
Reply #6 - Today at 15:56:19
 
uranusklingon wrote on Today at 14:20:54:
Dave,
Thanks for all the input. One of the first things I did was the raptor petcock, and plugged the vacuum line. Does this eliminate the vacuum advantage?


Nope.  The only thing that vacuum line did was tell the vacuum operated petcock that it is OK to flow fuel to the carb.

In the 70's I had a 2 stroke Suzuki TM125 motocross bike - my friends had Honda SL100's.  When we traded bikes I was not used to riding a 4 stroke, and the Honda's did not have CV carbs.  If I opened the throttle quickly like I did on my Suzuki - the Honda's would "cough" and instantly stop accelerating.....the guys who owned them did not have this problem as they had learned to roll the throttle on and allow the engine to build revs as they opened the throttle.  Honda started using CV carbs to resolve that issue.
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Axman88
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Re: Carb and choke questions
Reply #7 - Today at 19:45:53
 
Dave wrote on Today at 15:56:19:
In the 70's I had a 2 stroke Suzuki TM125 motocross bike - my friends had Honda SL100's.  When we traded bikes I was not used to riding a 4 stroke, and the Honda's did not have CV carbs.  If I opened the throttle quickly like I did on my Suzuki - the Honda's would "cough" and instantly stop accelerating.....the guys who owned them did not have this problem as they had learned to roll the throttle on and allow the engine to build revs as they opened the throttle.  Honda started using CV carbs to resolve that issue.  


A Suzuki TM250 was equipped with a direct acting carburetor.  https://www.suzukipartshouse.com/oemparts/a/suz/50d392fef8700229982f2f41/carb...
So was the Honda SL100.

Honda starting putting CVs onto their ROAD bikes in the mid 60s.  My '69 CB450 had a pair of them, and CB350s and CB750s were also equipped.  And, I'd say that Honda did it to make riding their products more idiot proof.   CVs just delay the opening of the ACTUAL throttle slide.  The rider is no longer in control, engine vacuum is.  Another benefit from the point of view of the manufacturer, is that substantial changes in altitude can be managed without rejetting, which means less need for a service call, fewer negative experiences when crossing mountain passes.

Another factor is that direct acting will often incorporate a piston type fuel pump, that acts when the rider twists the throttle.  This injects some raw fuel to eliminate the flat spot, but makes it more challenging to meet emissions standards.

The reason it was undesireable to have a CV type carb on a dirt bike 50 years ago is the same reason it's undesireable now, when you want quick throttle response to lift the front wheel over a log or other obstacle, you want it NOW, not a second from now.  A CV, opening the vacuum operated slide, lags behind rider control of the butterfly by an appreciable amount.

And, that dependence on manifold vacuum is also a pain in the butt when folks want to change their air intake system.  Losing the factory air box can result in quite a challenge.  Even something as simple as installing a pod filter can screw up the way the engine develops vacuum and render tuning unmanageable.  Don't even think about stacks!
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