SuzukiSavage.com - Is the clutch really ncessary all the time??

shadowman

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Is the clutch really ncessary all the time??
07/29/08 at 15:19:55

Starting from zero, sure, but sometimes when I have hit terminal velocity I find myself easing off the throttle and nudging it from 4th to 5th w/o using the clutch. Don't hear or feel any serious protestations. I have heard that this is a technique used in racing. Can anyone say -- with any authority -- that this is either OK or a really bad idea? Thanks

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mick

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Re: Is the clutch really ncessary all the time??
Reply #1 - 07/29/08 at 15:37:58

I don't think it's a good idea,I know there are some here who disagree.
Guys that race still use the clutch but hardly any change in throttle,they did in my day anyway,who knows they might use a different tecnique now days,heck ! when I started watching racers in the Isle of Man they didn't stick there knee out ether,the bikes then had a very low center of gravity.

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Gort

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Re: Is the clutch really ncessary all the time??
Reply #2 - 07/29/08 at 16:44:44

Why teach yourself this bad habit and take the chance of blowing the trans by not using the clutch? Yes maybe with practice you can shift without it, but what happens if you aren't paying attention to your trick shifting and end up busting the trans...is it worth it? I had a '52 Harley Hummer when I was a teen and used to trick shift without the clutch, until the day I had to quickly act to avoid a collision. Too frantic to worry about feeling the gears and listening to the RPMs, I shifted out of habit without the clutch and blew the trans, which in turn busted the crankshaft. Bike was junk, and all because I was so used to shifting without the clutch.

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verslagen1 YaBB Moderator ModSquad Offline Where there's a will, I want to be in it. Posts: 29042 L.A. California Gender:	Re: Is the clutch really ncessary all the time?? Reply #3 - 07/29/08 at 17:15:43 Dad once thought (beer in hand) about getting an industrial electric clutch
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Paladin. Serious Thumper Offline Hamster Posts: 4929 Sunny Southern California Gender:	Re: Is the clutch really ncessary all the time?? Reply #4 - 07/29/08 at 17:48:11 http://www.f6rider.com/VRCC/tech/trans.htm Clutchless shifting does no harm, is easier and faster.
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Gort

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Re: Is the clutch really ncessary all the time??
Reply #5 - 07/29/08 at 18:50:45

Paladin. wrote on 07/29/08 at 17:48:11:

http://www.f6rider.com/VRCC/tech/trans.htm

Clutchless shifting does no harm, is easier and faster.

WHAT?!!! The link you provided explains the need to control RPMs during clutch-less shifting, exactly as I have done driving 10 speed Peterbilts without the clutch for the last 10 years. Clutch-less shifting of a bike without paying attention to rpms will grind at least, and, in a panic situation, if you force it in you may damage the trans. This is a bad habit to get into on a motorcycle where your attention should be elsewhere for safety reasons. You shouldn't be listening to the rpms and paying attention to when to slide the gear in. You should pay as much attention as possible to the road. Where is the wisdom in learning to trick shift at the possible expense of your gearbox, or in re-focusing your attention from the road for such an inane reason?

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Jay Serious Thumper Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 1445 Fort Worth, Texas Gender:	Re: Is the clutch really ncessary all the time?? Reply #6 - 07/29/08 at 19:00:37 "Can do" vs "should do". Two very different things. Which one you pick can be determined by the size of your check book, and as Gort pointed out at the possible expense of your personal safety. The clutch is there for a reason, same as the brake. Use it.
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Yonuh Adisi FSO

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Re: Is the clutch really ncessary all the time??
Reply #7 - 07/29/08 at 19:09:35

Arthur wrote on 07/29/08 at 18:50:45:

Paladin. wrote on 07/29/08 at 17:48:11:

http://www.f6rider.com/VRCC/tech/trans.htm

Clutchless shifting does no harm, is easier and faster.

WHAT?!!! The link you provided explains the need to control RPMs during clutch-less shifting, exactly as I have done driving 10 speed Peterbilts without the clutch for the last 10 years. Clutch-less shifting of a bike without paying attention to rpms will grind at least, and, in a panic situation, if you force it in you may damage the trans. This is a bad habit to get into on a motorcycle where your attention should be elsewhere for safety reasons. You shouldn't be listening to the rpms and paying attention to when to slide the gear in. You should pay as much attention as possible to the road. Where is the wisdom in learning to trick shift at the possible expense of your gearbox, or in re-focusing your attention from the road for such an inane reason?

I will give you the reason to learn how to "trick shift"

Clutch failure. If you know how to speed shift, you can still make it home without having to call someone. I myself have had to do this very thing a few months ago.

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T Mack 1 - FSO

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Re: Is the clutch really ncessary all the time??
Reply #8 - 07/29/08 at 19:23:07

Yonuh Adisi FSO wrote on 07/29/08 at 19:09:35:

I will give you the reason to learn how to "trick shift"

Clutch failure. If you know how to speed shift, you can still make it home without having to call someone. I myself have had to do this very thing a few months ago.

The Jedi master has spoken. A very valid point. We should know how.

But, I also agree with Gort, using the clutch should be instinct. The trick shifting should be sometime you need to think about to do when you break down.

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Paladin.

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Re: Is the clutch really ncessary all the time??
Reply #9 - 07/29/08 at 19:40:49

Arthur wrote on 07/29/08 at 18:50:45:

....The link you provided explains the need to control RPMs during clutch-less shifting, exactly....

as with clutched shifting.

This is not "trick" shifting. Pay attention to RPMs? It's subconscious, as is the cordination between the off-on throttle and toe pressure. No more attention is needed for clutchless shifting than clutched shifting -- probably less as you don't need to coordinate both hands. You don't need to listen to the revs as you don't need to match speed as in a crash box or synchromesh transmission -- just deload and slip between gears. Clutchless shifting allows more attention to be paid to the road. At least for me.

Your experience is different than mine. I started shifting clutchless in '64 when I learned what a constant mesh transmission was and how it worked. Haven't killed any bikes yet.

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Gort

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Re: Is the clutch really ncessary all the time??
Reply #10 - 07/29/08 at 19:57:17

T Mack 1 - FSO wrote on 07/29/08 at 19:23:07:

Yonuh Adisi FSO wrote on 07/29/08 at 19:09:35:

I will give you the reason to learn how to "trick shift"

Clutch failure. If you know how to speed shift, you can still make it home without having to call someone. I myself have had to do this very thing a few months ago.

The Jedi master has spoken. A very valid point. We should know how.

But, I also agree with Gort, using the clutch should be instinct. The trick shifting should be sometime you need to think about to do when you break down.

The reason I made my posts was because Newbies frequent this site; they ask questions; and thank members for their advice and counsel.
If a Newbie gets the idea that this site feels that clutch-less shifting, "does no harm, is easier and faster", then they might try it. Shifting without a clutch takes practice and if for whatever reason, you are one of those riders who just can't get it right, then you may well damage your trans in the attempt. And for what? Its not right to allow a trusting Newbie to think its "easy" to do this, only to have the person damage his trans., especially if it locks up and sends him flying.

As for learning it so you can get home due to a clutch failure, why? Why distract yourself from focusing on the road and why gamble that you hear the rpms right (no tach) shifting a trans that was designed to be used with a clutch? I wouldn't roll the dice with a trans that was never designed to shift clutch-less, just for reasons of convenience.

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justin_o_guy2

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Re: Is the clutch really ncessary all the time??
Reply #11 - 07/29/08 at 20:06:57

A quick roll off & toe up at the same time is an upshift. I can downshift by goosing it or letting off, both work. For 2nd to first or first to second is just too bhig an RPM jump to not lurch things around, so I wont do that one anymore. Ive done it successfully several times, but its just too hard to be better than using the clutch. 3rd,4th & 5th are easy & very quick. Just get the toe under the shifter, apply light pressure, not enough to shift yet, then slam the throttle shut as quick as you can & lift at the same time. After you get good at that, practice shifting with less aggressive throttle closing, eventually, you can shift just barely rolling off.
Downshifting is easy, step lightly on the shifter & roll off the throttle, step on it as you roll off, eventually it gets real easy. ( the above is for cruising riding)
For Hot rodding, I step down & give it a goose at the same time, then close the throttle down & do it again.

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mornhm - FSO

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Re: Is the clutch really ncessary all the time??
Reply #12 - 07/30/08 at 05:28:19

One thing to consider with clutchless shifting, it takes time for a MC to catch up with your intention to match rpms. This is not a good thing if you need to shift "right now." I agree it's a good thing to know how to do. However, it's not a good practice on a daily basis.

The reason for the clutch is to put the wear/stress on a part that is designed to slide/slip. Gears are designed to mesh or engage, not slip. Think about what happens when you shift gears, the ratio in the transmission changes, therefore your rpm or speed has to change right at the moment of shifting. Physics (inertia of the machine) will tell you this isn't possible. So the change to match is either done by "klunking" the transmission into gear and matching the rpm to speed or slipping the clutch again matching the rpm to speed. Which do you think is better for the gears. Which do you think the manufacturere had in mind when they made multiple gear transmissions. Yes you can minimize the klunk, but you can't eliminate it because you are changing ratios.

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justin_o_guy2

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Re: Is the clutch really ncessary all the time??
Reply #13 - 07/30/08 at 06:32:58

I can shift "Right Now" nearly anytime, clutchless. Or, I may grab the clutch, But, toe, throttle, clutch grabbing, all should be natural, no thinking. Unless & until it is, use the clutch.Then, once that is mastered, IF you think you can do it without needing a dustpan, give it a shot. I hadnt read this site when I did it, but I used to drive big trucks in the oilfield. I had a busted clutch linkeage & I got home. I had a busted throttle return spring, & I got it home. Bought a screen door spring off a hamburger joints door in West Tx., cut some wire out of a f3nce & fixed 'er up..Ya gotta be able to get by, & knowing how to shift w/o a clutch can be evry handy.

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Paladin.

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Re: Is the clutch really ncessary all the time??
Reply #14 - 07/30/08 at 06:34:07

mornhm - FSO wrote on 07/30/08 at 05:28:19:

One thing to consider with clutchless shifting, it takes time for a MC to catch up with your intention to match rpms. This is not a good thing if you need to shift "right now."....

ah.....

If you need to shift "right now" clutchless is much faster:

click for movie
At 2 seconds in I do the 1-2 shift with clutch, rather slow. At 5 seconds I do the 2-3 shift, then the 3-4 shift at the 7 second mark and throttle back to cruise.

Using the clutch I take nearly a quarter second, clutchless is under a tenth of a second.

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